Salvation by faith and works..?

General Christian Theology
Neto
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Neto »

Valerie wrote:Thank you Paul, I have a simple question- you might put me in the category of not being "Once Saved Always Saved" because I believe a person always has free will. That being said, I consider the passage about being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and I do agree with this. But cannot a seal be broken? I don't think that God, breaks the seal but in our own free will we do not lose, we can chose to leave the faith- there are many examples of those who were in the faith whose faith became shipwrecked or who left the faith for the world. I realize 1 John 2:19 implies then those people were never 'of us' but I see some of these people having truly been born again but left on their own free will. Do you believe then, that once a person is sealed, they lose their free will?
Even (the Apostle) Paul express a concern that he would stick with it - persevere - through to the end. That seems to me to be a recognition of the importance of 'working out our salvation with fear & trembling'.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Paul wrote: Well I think I am familiar enough with the English language to understand what is being said, though there always could be subtle nuances that are missed ofcourse. No I am not a member of the doopsgezinden, I did look into it but it seems to be extremely liberal nowadays and not at all seperated from the world, they were also the first church in Holland to have a female pastor. Same goes for the moravian society/herrnhutters, that is still here in Holland.
Why did their works cause a problem for you? Shouldn't you have been focusing on their faith instead?
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Paul
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

Valerie wrote:Thank you Paul, I have a simple question- you might put me in the category of not being "Once Saved Always Saved" because I believe a person always has free will. That being said, I consider the passage about being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and I do agree with this. But cannot a seal be broken? I don't think that God, breaks the seal but in our own free will we do not lose, we can chose to leave the faith- there are many examples of those who were in the faith whose faith became shipwrecked or who left the faith for the world. I realize 1 John 2:19 implies then those people were never 'of us' but I see some of these people having truly been born again but left on their own free will. Do you believe then, that once a person is sealed, they lose their free will?
When someone has been born again, would you agree that his or her will is renewed, to love holiness instead of unrighteousness, light instead of darkness, the Lord Jesus Christ instead of the pleasures of sin for a season?

I do believe we have become slaves or 'doulos' in greek of Jesus Christ, when we came to saving faith we said: 'Not my will, but Yours be done'. This renewed will we receive when we are born again, doesn't entirely overrule our ability to sin ofcourse, as is clear in the case of Peter and others. But because our will is renewed by the Spirit, it does hurt us deeply when we do fall into sin and I believe we will be brought back to a place of repentance. If there is a case of living in unrepentant and habitual sin, you can question whether your will has ever been renewed to love holiness and hate sin?

As to the sealing, I believe in Biblical terms sealing is a sign of certainty - like the book with the seven seals in revelation could only be opened by the Lord Jesus. I believe when it says God seals us unto redemption, it is a declaration of the certainty of that future redemption, because who could ever break that which God has sealed?
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Paul
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

ken_sylvania wrote: Why did their works cause a problem for you? Shouldn't you have been focusing on their faith instead?
Well that's clever, but the fact that by the fruit we can know the tree - discern whether or not it is ingrafted in the Lord Jesus Christ - does not mean that the fruit then becomes part of the foundation for salvation (or justification), that honour only belongs to Jesus Christ.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Paul wrote:... the fact that by the fruit we can know the tree - discern whether or not it is ingrafted in the Lord Jesus Christ - does not mean that the fruit then becomes part of the foundation for salvation (or justification), that honour only belongs to Jesus Christ.
I agree with this statement, and the vast majority of Anabaptist people I know would agree as well. I think it would be fair to say that we believe that an alive faith is necessary for salvation, that we believe that an alive faith will result in good works, and that we believe that a person who carelessly disobeys God is demonstrating that he does not have true living faith.
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Paul
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Paul »

ken_sylvania wrote: I agree with this statement, and the vast majority of Anabaptist people I know would agree as well. I think it would be fair to say that we believe that an alive faith is necessary for salvation, that we believe that an alive faith will result in good works, and that we believe that a person who carelessly disobeys God is demonstrating that he does not have true living faith.
I am glad to hear that, someone asked me why I am on this forum not long ago, well this is exactly why. Because I love the anabaptists - your zeal to live a godly life according to Gods Word is beautiful - and I believe there is alot which brothers and sisters in the Lord can agree on regardless of our background.
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Neto
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Neto »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Paul wrote:... the fact that by the fruit we can know the tree - discern whether or not it is ingrafted in the Lord Jesus Christ - does not mean that the fruit then becomes part of the foundation for salvation (or justification), that honour only belongs to Jesus Christ.
I agree with this statement, and the vast majority of Anabaptist people I know would agree as well. I think it would be fair to say that we believe that an alive faith is necessary for salvation, that we believe that an alive faith will result in good works, and that we believe that a person who carelessly disobeys God is demonstrating that he does not have true living faith...
...at that time.

[In other words, a person could have had true living faith at one time, and then later fail to have that same faith.]
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
Valerie wrote:Thank you Paul, I have a simple question- you might put me in the category of not being "Once Saved Always Saved" because I believe a person always has free will. That being said, I consider the passage about being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and I do agree with this. But cannot a seal be broken? I don't think that God, breaks the seal but in our own free will we do not lose, we can chose to leave the faith- there are many examples of those who were in the faith whose faith became shipwrecked or who left the faith for the world. I realize 1 John 2:19 implies then those people were never 'of us' but I see some of these people having truly been born again but left on their own free will. Do you believe then, that once a person is sealed, they lose their free will?
Even (the Apostle) Paul express a concern that he would stick with it - persevere - through to the end. That seems to me to be a recognition of the importance of 'working out our salvation with fear & trembling'.
What about these verses-

"That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

And - 'And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

I think Paul was pretty assured of his salvation and that of others but he did also say that it is God working in us to be saved and we need a humility and respect for God in doing this to obey and not give way to the flesh. When we interfere with God's work we will be disciplined and reap what happens when we disobey. I don't think we are ever to fear losing our salvation and to have anxiety regarding being saved or not.

"I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

Neto, am I understanding you to be saying we could lose our salvation if we don't fearfully work at it ?
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Valerie »

Neto wrote:
Valerie wrote:Thank you Paul, I have a simple question- you might put me in the category of not being "Once Saved Always Saved" because I believe a person always has free will. That being said, I consider the passage about being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and I do agree with this. But cannot a seal be broken? I don't think that God, breaks the seal but in our own free will we do not lose, we can chose to leave the faith- there are many examples of those who were in the faith whose faith became shipwrecked or who left the faith for the world. I realize 1 John 2:19 implies then those people were never 'of us' but I see some of these people having truly been born again but left on their own free will. Do you believe then, that once a person is sealed, they lose their free will?
Even (the Apostle) Paul express a concern that he would stick with it - persevere - through to the end. That seems to me to be a recognition of the importance of 'working out our salvation with fear & trembling'.
I don't mean to use this passage as a proof text, but it is something I keep in mind:
Matthew 24:
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Also I suppose by passages like Revelations 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

From that passage, it gives the impression that one's name, if they didn't 'overcome', their name could be blotted out of the book of life- if I understand correctly, only those Born Again would be in the Book of Life- if Jesus could blot one's name out of it, doesn't that give the impression you could lose your salvation?
I do believe we can consider ourselves Christians, but if we are told to work out our salvation as Neto says, with fear and trembling- there does seem to be an implication that we could lose it-but I think that would be willfull on our part-
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation by faith and works..?

Post by Valerie »

Paul wrote:
Valerie wrote:Thank you Paul, I have a simple question- you might put me in the category of not being "Once Saved Always Saved" because I believe a person always has free will. That being said, I consider the passage about being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and I do agree with this. But cannot a seal be broken? I don't think that God, breaks the seal but in our own free will we do not lose, we can chose to leave the faith- there are many examples of those who were in the faith whose faith became shipwrecked or who left the faith for the world. I realize 1 John 2:19 implies then those people were never 'of us' but I see some of these people having truly been born again but left on their own free will. Do you believe then, that once a person is sealed, they lose their free will?
When someone has been born again, would you agree that his or her will is renewed, to love holiness instead of unrighteousness, light instead of darkness, the Lord Jesus Christ instead of the pleasures of sin for a season?

I do believe we have become slaves or 'doulos' in greek of Jesus Christ, when we came to saving faith we said: 'Not my will, but Yours be done'. This renewed will we receive when we are born again, doesn't entirely overrule our ability to sin ofcourse, as is clear in the case of Peter and others. But because our will is renewed by the Spirit, it does hurt us deeply when we do fall into sin and I believe we will be brought back to a place of repentance. If there is a case of living in unrepentant and habitual sin, you can question whether your will has ever been renewed to love holiness and hate sin?

As to the sealing, I believe in Biblical terms sealing is a sign of certainty - like the book with the seven seals in revelation could only be opened by the Lord Jesus. I believe when it says God seals us unto redemption, it is a declaration of the certainty of that future redemption, because who could ever break that which God has sealed?
Thank you Paul, I can align with this for the most part- and yes that is what happens when we turn to Christ and receive the Holy Spirit- I just know of some examples where names were named, who left the faith (and had been Christians)- so some might say they didn't have the faith to begin with, but that is not what the passages say about them-
Not saying someone who falls into sin cannot repent and be restored, but some made a decision to go back to the world.
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