Salvation by faith and works..?

[Valerie]

Does the Bible say to submit one to another or not?

You seem to think Anabaptist standards are all top down. That's not how it works at all.

I am just saying why Evangelicals draw a parallel to a spirit of Phariseeism where they added to the 'law' and made things requirements, that God did not say were requirements.
I also believe personally that if the Holy Spirit was the guide in all of this, the groups would be a lot more similar than they are- this is something else that leads to the confusion about it where people end up seeing the leaning towards legalism.
Trust me Josh, I am not saying anything different than my Anabaptist friends have/had shared with me in their own concerns, who actually discouraged me from focusing on Anabaptism, even though they were- these are things I cannot help but take into consideration as in your comment that Evangelicals harp on Mennonites & Amish (which I admit happens), I have been part of discussion forum or facebook groups of formers who harp on them, more than Evangelicals who never were Anabaptists to begin with-which is what led me here to MD to begin with, when my Orthodox friend knew I leaned more towards Anabaptists and was pursuing that direction several years ago.

[Valerie]

I would also like to add, I have never been a part of any church (Pentecost, non-denomination/Evangelical) that did not stress to be involved in some form of works, whether by mission or by ministries, I heard it from the pulpit, heard it among fellow Believers, heard it from radio pastors who encourage a huge variety of mission work or ministries- there is something for every believer to be involved in as far as works- Joe Keim, former Amish, Mission to Amish may be Evangelical but I don't think I know anyone who spends more time in ministry, teaching, discipling, etc- and every church I've been a part of there is a vast amount of 'works' one can get involved in-

[Paul]

Dear Valerie,
These are very tough Scriptures to understand rightly, and I want to be careful that what I say is truly dividing the Word rightly, also in the humble admission that I don't know anything but praying that the Lord will grant the wisdom to understand His truths. So I will read these Scriptures you mentioned and their context, and pray over this and I will try to respond later on.

So I have thought about it, and read the texts and prayed for it, and I have to say I do not have an easy answer. The Bible paints a seeming paradox, that is somehow both true, but impossible to comprehend how they both can be true at the same time. I think the Bible does this on other issues aswell, when it comes to our free will and Gods sovereignty for example. On Gods sovereignty, the Bible says:

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lamentations 3:37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Yet on man's responsibility, it also says:

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

He has not given His people a heart to perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear.

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

But that doesn't excuse them at all, they are fully responsible for their unbelief, and righteously punished for it.

Deuteronomy 29:24-28 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

So just to give a few examples of how God is Sovereign, and yet man is responsible, two truths that I don't want to attempt to bring together, as the Bible doesn't make any effort to do so either.

Well likewise I think it is in the case of our perseverance. I think perseverance of the saints is a much better term to describe what I mean than Once Saved, Always Saved. True saints, with true living faith will ultimately persevere through all the trials that come our way - so the perseverance through trials proves our faith is real and can stand the heat. However if it falls away, it shows that our faith was not true persevering faith, and that such temporary faith exists was made clear in the parable of the soils and in the parable of the houses that were built on the sand/rock. In times of trial, when the wind and the waves came, it became apparant which house was founded upon the Rock, and in times of trial it became apparant which seed fell into good soil and had enough root.

So we are admonished in Scripture to persevere to the end, and yes those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ are called to persevere, they are responsible to keep the faith and by keeping it - proving that it is the true kind of faith that endures to the end, the good soil that brings forth 30,60 or 100 fold, the house that is built on the Rock, and the fruitful branch that abides in the Vine.

And at the same time it is God that keeps them and seals them by His Holy Spirit, it is Christ that intercedes for them, and it is He that will lose none of His sheep. So I think these truths are similar to our free will and Gods sovereignty, both are true yet hard to reconcile in our minds - but the good thing is that we don't need to, we can simply let both truths stand as God has revealed it to us in His Word and affirm them both as true.

I do not believe that when our Lord says their names will not be blotted out of the book of life in Revelation 3:5, it necessarily means anything other than an encouragement to persevere. I don't think it means our names can be written in the book of life, to then be blotted out again.

Sorry I didn't have more time to add Scripture references etc, but I have to be in bed in time for work tomorrow.

God bless!

[MattY]

I agree with this statement, and the vast majority of Anabaptist people I know would agree as well. I think it would be fair to say that we believe that an alive faith is necessary for salvation, that we believe that an alive faith will result in good works, and that we believe that a person who carelessly disobeys God is demonstrating that he does not have true living faith.

I am glad to hear that, someone asked me why I am on this forum not long ago, well this is exactly why. Because I love the anabaptists - your zeal to live a godly life according to Gods Word is beautiful - and I believe there is alot which brothers and sisters in the Lord can agree on regardless of our background.

hi Paul, i'm late to this topic, would like to tell you how much i appreciate your OP, the responses, and the effort you are making to better understand. you have valid questions that lots of folks might wonder about but never have opportunity, or are not able to find words to ask.

i'm not sure why questions arise, like, "why are you on this forum?" .. i'm glad you were not discouraged. this forum has admin+mods, if they feel any member does not belong here, they give fair+patient warning before doing anything drastic. this forum is "A place where Mennonites and others connect." and, that's literally true! there are lots of us "others." for the most part, here for similar reason as you describe.

i may not post again in this topic, but i am enjoying reading+learning.
thank you for taking the time to contribute.

I agree with this. Paul, if you were referring to what I said in my first comment, I'm sorry; I didn't mean for it to be taken like that. I was just worried about your tone at the beginning of your original comment and how it would affect the reception to your views - I actually agree with a lot of what you were saying. Ironic then that my tone came off wrong. Don't worry about what I said.

[temporal1]

I agree with this. Paul, if you were referring to what I said in my first comment, I'm sorry; I didn't mean for it to be taken like that. I was just worried about your tone at the beginning of your original comment and how it would affect the reception to your views - I actually agree with a lot of what you were saying. Ironic then that my tone came off wrong. Don't worry about what I said.

i hope you don't think i was thinking of your early post, i wasn't.

[MattY]

Does the Bible say to submit one to another or not?

You seem to think Anabaptist standards are all top down. That's not how it works at all.

Going from "Submit to one another" to "We should have uniformity enforced by mandatory external extra-biblical standards" seems like a real non-sequitur. Same for, "This person left our church and joined a group of believers affiliated with the CMC, so we need to discipline them". (Now, my church has never excommunicated anyone for going over to one of the two CMC churches here in this area - but maybe other groups would). Or, "This person from the ______ conference wears a veil, but she married someone from our church, and must wear a covering with strings in order for us to accept her." When things like this happen, it feels like externals-focused, top-down enforcement - and yes, even Pharisaical. Plus, my generation had no part in setting up standards like no parting hair on the side, no musical instruments, covering strings required, etc...so these things simply feel like top-down requirements that we are being told to submit to, especially when they are more traditional/cultural than biblical.

[Josh]

buckeyematt2,

I would ask this: nobody in one of the CMC affiliates near me wears the veiling who is under 40. I think it's something the Bible teaches.

Likewise, carrying guns for self defence is quite widespread in the membership there.

Another church here affiliated with the CMC until last year has a preacher who teaches Jesus might have been just a man and it's not important to view him as God, and also has pretty open views on homosexuality.

And yet another took "Mennonite" off its sign and has abandoned any pretence of nonresistance.

Is this a good or a bad trend?

How exactly does one embrace seekers and what do you teach them when obedience is a moving target? Kapps today, veils tomorrow, no coverings next year, short haircuts in 10 years.

(There's plenty more to talk about in the slide to worldliness but I think that's enough to work on for now.)

[Paul]

I agree with this. Paul, if you were referring to what I said in my first comment, I'm sorry; I didn't mean for it to be taken like that. I was just worried about your tone at the beginning of your original comment and how it would affect the reception to your views - I actually agree with a lot of what you were saying. Ironic then that my tone came off wrong. Don't worry about what I said.

You have a sensitive conscience my friend, and that's a good thing , but I wasn't referring to your comment at all - I was referring to a comment from a different thread.

[Paul]

Perhaps you misunderstood Burkholder's meaning, because he sees salvation not so much as an event, but as a process (see the bolded sections above).

"Yet as already said, true faith is much more precious than these. For according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, not a soul will be lost that has this faith."

Well perhaps, but I don't know how I can misunderstand Burkholder's meaning in the quote above when he says that not a soul will be lost that has this faith. Either he is contradicting himself if he later on says that a person can have this true faith, and still lose it and go lost, or that's not what he means.

[Paul]

Do you think it's appropriate to wait all year for Mennonites to show up to sing on the street and pass out tracts, and then yell at any passersby who take a tract "You can't be good!" "Your works can't save you, stop trying to be good!" "You're sinning, there's nobody good but God, you can't change or stop sinning!"

That is, unfortunately, the logical end-conclusion of this kind of thinking. It is fruitless and unproductive to tell people and try to convince them that they cannot make choices, and that they cannot desire or try to follow Jesus or desire or try to love Jesus.

Pretty much all Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, Brethren, and others believe in salvation by grace. We do believe that you can make a choice to follow Jesus, or a choice to reject him, but we also believe that this is only even possible because of Jesus' grace enabling us to make such a choice. But we don't believe that God "forces" us to choose him when we don't want him. And we certainly do not believe that God decides to just send some people to hell with no choice.

I would exhort you to read very carefully the books of James and Jude. They talk a lot about false teachers who will come and preach a different gospel - a gospel that gives licence to sin.

For certain men have secretly slipped in among you—men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe—ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Going around telling people that obeying Jesus and not sinning is actually a bad thing and you shouldn't do it for fear of "relying on works" sounds very much like turning the grace of our God into a licence for evil.

No I don't think that is appropriate at all, there are much better places to discuss these issues without disturbing someone that's trying to share the Gospel, such as a forum.