Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:49 pm
The difference is that there is no question about what Jesus and the Apostles have to say about divorce and remarriage. The difference in opinions has to do with what God may tolerate. Not what he has to say.
Whilst I think there’s no question that Jesus said “except for sexual immorality”, many conservative Anabaptists invent other meanings for Matthew 7, such as ideas about some kind of betrothal custom.
The difference in opinions does indeed boil down to questions about what the text says God says.
I suppose it also depends on whether you believe repentance should involve change or not.
I don't know anyone who believes repentance does not involve change. Perhaps you could give your definition of what it means to repent ?
I believe it involves acknowledging one's sin, being sorry for that sin and turning with intent to not do that sin again. As scripture says that just because grace abounds doesn't mean we can freely sin.
Seems the issue might be whether one believes the state of being re-married is living in continuous adultery or if one has repented and the new marriage is acceptable to God as a legitimate married state. I believe, as this link says, the latter.
My question is, what change did this repentance bring?
Looks like there was a sinful act, a profession of repentance was made, and then the act was made legitimate by a formality so that the sinner was then free to enjoy the fruits of his sin. Is that really how things work?
Like any sin, turning away from whatever one was guilty of in the breakdown of the first marriage is the change(s) that one will determine to make in the second marriage. God hates divorce. We should too. My belief is that forgiveness gives us a clean slate, as if we never sinned. We should not use this as a license to sin but rather as a new commitment to go and sin no more in the same way.
Those of us who have had marriage breakdowns have suffered greatly with the many terrible consequences of this experience and the continued pain of living apart from our children. In my case, I lost a son who was given to his mother and at the age of 16, he took his life. Remarriage does not make all of this pain go away. Thankfully God gives us the grace to live with this pain and to not let it destroy us. Some who have not been through this don't understand the fruits of our failed marriage is not wiped away by our enjoyment of a second marriage.
I have been blessed with being remarried for some 30 years now and have had fellowship with believers that have not held to a belief in perpetual adultery of the remarried. I'm thankful that there are many Christian faith groups and individuals that I can fellowship with in my remarriage state that don't regard me as living in sin and a sinner on my way to hell.
So, bottom line for this thread, I don't believe scripture teaches that remarriage is a state of perpetual adultery that will send a believer to hell whereas it appears others do.
Sudsy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:48 pmI'm thankful that there are many Christian faith groups and individuals that I can fellowship with in my remarriage state that don't regard me as living in sin and a sinner on my way to hell.
So, bottom line for this thread, I don't believe scripture teaches that remarriage is a state of perpetual adultery that will send a believer to hell whereas it appears others do.
And then there are those who don't say that remarriage automatically sends a person to hell, but still believe that people should obey Jesus rather than disobey Him...
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
I don't know anyone who believes repentance does not involve change. Perhaps you could give your definition of what it means to repent ?
I believe it involves acknowledging one's sin, being sorry for that sin and turning with intent to not do that sin again. As scripture says that just because grace abounds doesn't mean we can freely sin.
Seems the issue might be whether one believes the state of being re-married is living in continuous adultery or if one has repented and the new marriage is acceptable to God as a legitimate married state. I believe, as this link says, the latter.
My question is, what change did this repentance bring?
Looks like there was a sinful act, a profession of repentance was made, and then the act was made legitimate by a formality so that the sinner was then free to enjoy the fruits of his sin. Is that really how things work?
Like any sin, turning away from whatever one was guilty of in the breakdown of the first marriage is the change(s) that one will determine to make in the second marriage. God hates divorce. We should too. My belief is that forgiveness gives us a clean slate, as if we never sinned. We should not use this as a license to sin but rather as a new commitment to go and sin no more in the same way.
Those of us who have had marriage breakdowns have suffered greatly with the many terrible consequences of this experience and the continued pain of living apart from our children. In my case, I lost a son who was given to his mother and at the age of 16, he took his life. Remarriage does not make all of this pain go away. Thankfully God gives us the grace to live with this pain and to not let it destroy us. Some who have not been through this don't understand the fruits of our failed marriage is not wiped away by our enjoyment of a second marriage.
I have been blessed with being remarried for some 30 years now and have had fellowship with believers that have not held to a belief in perpetual adultery of the remarried. I'm thankful that there are many Christian faith groups and individuals that I can fellowship with in my remarriage state that don't regard me as living in sin and a sinner on my way to hell.
So, bottom line for this thread, I don't believe scripture teaches that remarriage is a state of perpetual adultery that will send a believer to hell whereas it appears others do.
It is a difference in interpretation a.ong different denominations. I am so sorry to read what you e gone through, and you are right there will always be consequences that follow the breakdown of a marriage. God in his Mercy allowed for remarriage in the Old testament and I realized Jesus words in the new testament. But he did allow for divorce in certain situations. Many interpret this meaning if he allowed for the divorce then that marriage was over and in that case a remarriage can occur.
When my present husband of 31 years and I were seeking Anabaptism and we're told that how we were guided by scripture to be able to marry was wrong, I shared this with our present at the time pastor of the church we attended for 20 years. Both our senior pastor and associate pastor disagreed with the Anabaptist interpretation which would encourage my present husband and I to separate. Their statement was repentance would mean not to do it again not to marry and divorce again so to them it would have been a sin to divorce. My first husband was already remarried -
I don't know anyone who believes repentance does not involve change. Perhaps you could give your definition of what it means to repent ?
I believe it involves acknowledging one's sin, being sorry for that sin and turning with intent to not do that sin again. As scripture says that just because grace abounds doesn't mean we can freely sin.
Seems the issue might be whether one believes the state of being re-married is living in continuous adultery or if one has repented and the new marriage is acceptable to God as a legitimate married state. I believe, as this link says, the latter.
My question is, what change did this repentance bring?
Looks like there was a sinful act, a profession of repentance was made, and then the act was made legitimate by a formality so that the sinner was then free to enjoy the fruits of his sin. Is that really how things work?
Like any sin, turning away from whatever one was guilty of in the breakdown of the first marriage is the change(s) that one will determine to make in the second marriage. God hates divorce. We should too. My belief is that forgiveness gives us a clean slate, as if we never sinned. We should not use this as a license to sin but rather as a new commitment to go and sin no more in the same way.
Those of us who have had marriage breakdowns have suffered greatly with the many terrible consequences of this experience and the continued pain of living apart from our children. In my case, I lost a son who was given to his mother and at the age of 16, he took his life. Remarriage does not make all of this pain go away. Thankfully God gives us the grace to live with this pain and to not let it destroy us. Some who have not been through this don't understand the fruits of our failed marriage is not wiped away by our enjoyment of a second marriage.
I have been blessed with being remarried for some 30 years now and have had fellowship with believers that have not held to a belief in perpetual adultery of the remarried. I'm thankful that there are many Christian faith groups and individuals that I can fellowship with in my remarriage state that don't regard me as living in sin and a sinner on my way to hell.
So, bottom line for this thread, I don't believe scripture teaches that remarriage is a state of perpetual adultery that will send a believer to hell whereas it appears others do.
Jesus misspoke to the woman caught in adultery, He should have said, "Neither do I condemn thee, go and marry another".
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
My question is, what change did this repentance bring?
Looks like there was a sinful act, a profession of repentance was made, and then the act was made legitimate by a formality so that the sinner was then free to enjoy the fruits of his sin. Is that really how things work?
Like any sin, turning away from whatever one was guilty of in the breakdown of the first marriage is the change(s) that one will determine to make in the second marriage. God hates divorce. We should too. My belief is that forgiveness gives us a clean slate, as if we never sinned. We should not use this as a license to sin but rather as a new commitment to go and sin no more in the same way.
Those of us who have had marriage breakdowns have suffered greatly with the many terrible consequences of this experience and the continued pain of living apart from our children. In my case, I lost a son who was given to his mother and at the age of 16, he took his life. Remarriage does not make all of this pain go away. Thankfully God gives us the grace to live with this pain and to not let it destroy us. Some who have not been through this don't understand the fruits of our failed marriage is not wiped away by our enjoyment of a second marriage.
I have been blessed with being remarried for some 30 years now and have had fellowship with believers that have not held to a belief in perpetual adultery of the remarried. I'm thankful that there are many Christian faith groups and individuals that I can fellowship with in my remarriage state that don't regard me as living in sin and a sinner on my way to hell.
So, bottom line for this thread, I don't believe scripture teaches that remarriage is a state of perpetual adultery that will send a believer to hell whereas it appears others do.
Jesus misspoke to the woman caught in adultery, He should have said, "Neither do I condemn thee, go and marry another".
So you are interpreting that to mean that she was caught in a remarriage? For one thing remarriage was allowed in the Old testament. For another thing that scripture is clearly the woman was caught in the act of adultery which is what? This is why Jesus told her to go and send no more, quit having extra marital intimacy. He was not addressing her marital status. Things are getting confusing when you read into things other than what is said
Sudsy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 10:48 pm
Like any sin, turning away from whatever one was guilty of in the breakdown of the first marriage is the change(s) that one will determine to make in the second marriage. God hates divorce. We should too. My belief is that forgiveness gives us a clean slate, as if we never sinned. We should not use this as a license to sin but rather as a new commitment to go and sin no more in the same way.
Those of us who have had marriage breakdowns have suffered greatly with the many terrible consequences of this experience and the continued pain of living apart from our children. In my case, I lost a son who was given to his mother and at the age of 16, he took his life. Remarriage does not make all of this pain go away. Thankfully God gives us the grace to live with this pain and to not let it destroy us. Some who have not been through this don't understand the fruits of our failed marriage is not wiped away by our enjoyment of a second marriage.
I have been blessed with being remarried for some 30 years now and have had fellowship with believers that have not held to a belief in perpetual adultery of the remarried. I'm thankful that there are many Christian faith groups and individuals that I can fellowship with in my remarriage state that don't regard me as living in sin and a sinner on my way to hell.
So, bottom line for this thread, I don't believe scripture teaches that remarriage is a state of perpetual adultery that will send a believer to hell whereas it appears others do.
Jesus misspoke to the woman caught in adultery, He should have said, "Neither do I condemn thee, go and marry another".
So you are interpreting that to mean that she was caught in a remarriage? For one thing remarriage was allowed in the Old testament. For another thing that scripture is clearly the woman was caught in the act of adultery which is what? This is why Jesus told her to go and send no more, quit having extra marital intimacy. He was not addressing her marital status. Things are getting confusing when you read into things other than what is said
I'm not sure where you get the idea that I said she was caught in remarriage? I said that it appears that remarriage rather than repentance is the proper response to adultery. Does the text say that she was caught in a single act of adultery? Or could she have been caught in the act of an adulterous relationship? I guess if you believe that after you repent from the act of adultery, living in an adulterous relationship is no longer sin, then that is all a moot point.
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
silentreader wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:18 am
Jesus misspoke to the woman caught in adultery, He should have said, "Neither do I condemn thee, go and marry another".
No, I believe Jesus was talking about an act of adultery. There is nothing said about leaving a marriage and marrying another here. What this text does point out is that the religious Pharisees were throwing the OT scriptures at Jesus that He should stone this woman but instead He said if any of them were without sin to go ahead and stone her. They had to admit none of them were without sin. So, Jesus told her to go and sin no more related to her act of adultery. I believe there is a lesson here for us about condemning others for their sins and a lesson too that God forgives all sin and upon forgiveness gives us a fresh start to go and sin no more.
Looking back at John 4 story of the woman at the well, when she said she had no husband, Jesus said she was correct that her current state was not a married state. She was in a 'live in' state. But prior to this Jesus said she had 5 husbands. We don't know the situations of why she had 5 husbands but Jesus did call them husbands and not men she had lived with and was not married to. I don't think this can easily be dismissed.
With regard to this thread's title, one of the practises we are not to engage in, and is more common in some faith groups and individual Christians more than in others, is in condemning others when none of us are without sin. Jesus has pointed out that to see other's sins in a clear way we need to first recognize and deal with our own sinful ways. When we don't, Jesus calls this being a hypocrite. Matthew 7:3-5. My guess is we have all been guilty of this at times in our lives and it is something to be reminded of.
silentreader wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:18 am
Jesus misspoke to the woman caught in adultery, He should have said, "Neither do I condemn thee, go and marry another".
No, I believe Jesus was talking about an act of adultery. There is nothing said about leaving a marriage and marrying another here. What this text does point out is that the religious Pharisees were throwing the OT scriptures at Jesus that He should stone this woman but instead He said if any of them were without sin to go ahead and stone her. They had to admit none of them were without sin. So, Jesus told her to go and sin no more related to her act of adultery. I believe there is a lesson here for us about condemning others for their sins and a lesson too that God forgives all sin and upon forgiveness gives us a fresh start to go and sin no more.
That's fine, it is possible to 'argue from silence' when all else fails I suppose. I keep coming back to thinking how close we come to the verse in Romans 6.
Looking back at John 4 story of the woman at the well, when she said she had no husband, Jesus said she was correct that her current state was not a married state. She was in a 'live in' state. But prior to this Jesus said she had 5 husbands. We don't know the situations of why she had 5 husbands but Jesus did call them husbands and not men she had lived with and was not married to. I don't think this can easily be dismissed.
I am not sure what that passage proves in these context. Was Jesus praising her life choices? Wasn't He showing her her need?
With regard to this thread's title, one of the practises we are not to engage in, and is more common in some faith groups and individual Christians more than in others, is in condemning others when none of us are without sin. Jesus has pointed out that to see other's sins in a clear way we need to first recognize and deal with our own sinful ways. When we don't, Jesus calls this being a hypocrite. Matthew 7:3-5. My guess is we have all been guilty of this at times in our lives and it is something to be reminded of.
That is true as well, I think both of us could reconsider some of our thinking in this regard. John 3:17 says that Jesus was not sent to condemn but to save. He has no need to condemn us, we are quite capable of doing that for ourselves by the personal responses we make to Jesus and the personal choices we make concerning His teachings.
There has been some talk about Anabaptists as Pharisees, but remember in Matthew 19 it was the Pharisees that Jesus was correcting concerning their view of divorce (for any cause). Not to deny that we Anabaptists can be Pharisaical, but there is more than one flavour of Pharisee.
1 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
