Prayer Postures

General Christian Theology
lesterb
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Re: Prayer Postures

Post by lesterb »

ohio jones wrote:
Neto wrote:(Someone explained to me that wooden benches are 'cleaner' than padded cloth.... :o :shock: )
If we adopted the Holdeman/Apostolic posture (which I consider preferable anyway) that would not be an issue.
Our congregation does that, but when ever we have visitors, we need to announce this in order to avoid embarrassing them. It has led to us avoiding kneeling prayer and standing instead.
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Josh
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Re: Prayer Postures

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What is embarrassing for a visitor w/ regard to kneeling prayer?

(I really think it's best for visitors to get acquainted with us outside of our church services, at something like a Bible study, etc.)
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Sudsy
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Re: Prayer Postures

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Valerie wrote:Sudsy, I will post some of the quotes now- per your request-
2 Scriptures were quoted:
"Lift your hands toward Him (Lamentations 2:19)
"I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands." (1 Timothy 2:8)

Quotes from early Church:

"Full of holy designs, you....stretched forth your hands to God Almighty." Clement of Rome (c.96, W) He was a 1st century Bishop of the Church at Rome, says he well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3)

"We also raise the head and lift the hands to heaven" Clement of Alexandria (c. 195) He was a learned Christian teacher at Alexandria, Egypt- who was in charge of the catechetical school there-lived between 150-215 A.D.

"We lived our eyes to heaven, with hands outstretched." Tertullian (c.195) Tertullian 160-230 was a fiery Christian writer in Carthage N. Africa, possibly an ordained presbyter-in around 211 he left the Church to join the Montanist congregation-

"With our hands thus stretched out and up to God, you tear us apart with your iron claws and hang us up on crosses... The very posture of a Christian praying is one of preparation for all punishment." Tertullian (c. 195)

"The Jews do not even dare to raise their hands to the Lord.... We, however, not only raise them, but even expand them. Taking our model from the Lord's passion, even in prayer we confess to Christ" Tertullian (c. 198)

"We commend our prayers to God better when we pray with modest and humility-with not even our hands too loftily elevated- but elevated temperately and becomingly." Tertullian (c. 1980

"We assuredly see the sign of a cross.... when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched." Mark Minucius Felix (c. 200) He was a Roman lawyer who converted to Christianity (2nd or 3rd century) who wrote Christian apologetics-

"The tax collector did not pray with eyes lifted up boldly to heaven, nor with hands proudly raised." Cyprian (C. 250) Cyprian d. 258 was the Bishop of the Church in Carthage, N. Africa during a period of fierce persecution. Bercot writes "that an extensive collection of letters written by and to Cyprian still remains, along with various treatises written by him. These works give tremendous insight into the structure of the church in the middle of the third century"

I left out a couple, (practicing data entry is not a bad thing) but it does seem that the Apostles taught to actually lift the hands in prayer, and we see it was passed down as both oral and written tradition-

Bercot's book has a lot of quotes about kneeling, when to kneel, etc- as the Church practiced kneeling as well-

As mentioned earlier, the drawings of Christians lifting their hands does indicate the practice being done, having been taught to them apparently. It 'seems' by some of the quotes as reaching out to God or outstretched as those who follow Jesus who stretched out His hands in martyrdom-
Thanks Valerie. Our pastor often prays and worships with raised hands, palms up. In my Pentecostal days it was hands up but more like what is done when a police officer says "stickum up". I like the palms up as to me it suggests I am recognizing Jesus as my Lord and my dependence on God for His directions, corrections and blessings.

i remember as a young lad (although i have trouble now remembering yesterday) the first time I was in a church that had kneelers. I thought 'cool' (well back them likely 'neat') a church with foot stools. Someone quickly told me to get my feet off those. Probably not many of this type of pews with kneelers around anymore.

Here are a few postures -

1) laying flat on the floor, face down, with hands stretched out (also known as 'prostrate')
2) standing, hands raised and spread, palms up, looking upward
3) standing, head bowed, eyes closed
4) sitting, head bowed, eyes closed, hands folded
5) kneeling, head bowed, hands folded
6) kneeling, head to the ground, hands face down on ground next to head
7) standing, eyes forward, centered on an object
8) sitting eyes closed, hands in front, palms up
9) laying flat on the floor or bed, face up, palms up
10) slow leisurely walk, eyes open, in a safe place where one can pay very little attention to where one is

I don't recall using 1 and 6. I'm wondering if this says something about my attitude. Just rhetorical. :)
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lesterb
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Re: Prayer Postures

Post by lesterb »

Josh wrote:What is embarrassing for a visitor w/ regard to kneeling prayer?

(I really think it's best for visitors to get acquainted with us outside of our church services, at something like a Bible study, etc.)
We get lots of Mennonite visitors but all of them are used to turning and kneeling at the bench they just were sitting on. We kneel ahead, towards the bench in front of us. It is embarrassing for visitors to turn around and see dozens of eyes looking at you. That happened to me when I visited a Holdeman church in southern Ontario, years ago.
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Neto
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Re: Prayer Postures

Post by Neto »

lesterb wrote:
Josh wrote:What is embarrassing for a visitor w/ regard to kneeling prayer?

(I really think it's best for visitors to get acquainted with us outside of our church services, at something like a Bible study, etc.)
We get lots of Mennonite visitors but all of them are used to turning and kneeling at the bench they just were sitting on. We kneel ahead, towards the bench in front of us. It is embarrassing for visitors to turn around and see dozens of eyes looking at you. That happened to me when I visited a Holdeman church in southern Ontario, years ago.
This is interesting, because the only places where I've ever been where they kneel forward (in corporate prayer) are Lutheran & Catholic churches, where they have the fold-down knee benches (or what ever they are called) in the pew ahead of you. (When I kneel while singing now, and in the past in the Assem. of God services, I faced forward as well, but that was not & is not corporate prayer. Our congregation no longer kneels to pray, ever. Because we have carpet & padded seats. :( )
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Josh
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Re: Prayer Postures

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lesterb wrote:
Josh wrote:What is embarrassing for a visitor w/ regard to kneeling prayer?

(I really think it's best for visitors to get acquainted with us outside of our church services, at something like a Bible study, etc.)
We get lots of Mennonite visitors but all of them are used to turning and kneeling at the bench they just were sitting on. We kneel ahead, towards the bench in front of us. It is embarrassing for visitors to turn around and see dozens of eyes looking at you. That happened to me when I visited a Holdeman church in southern Ontario, years ago.
Oh... that makes sense. Yes, I noticed when at a Hutterite church service that everyone knelt forward to pray, which was kind of convenient, since that's what I'm used to doing.

Except I assumed it would be the (non-Holdeman) Mennonite way so I turned around to kneel to pray, and then when I got up realised I was aimed the wrong way!
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Re: Prayer Postures

Post by Valerie »

Neto wrote:
Valerie wrote:
JimFoxvog wrote:I grew up with the Methodists. Eyes closed, head bowed, hands together was the tradition. I don't find that in the Bible, but it's familiar and comfortable sometimes.

I found a deeper relationship with the Lord with the charismatic movement. Hands raised, looking up seems more biblical, and helps me with an attitude of praise.

I've sometimes knelt in Methodist, Mennonite, and Catholic settings. It is good for feeling humble. Sometimes kneeling and hands raised to heaven feels a good posture for supplication.

My lay-led MC-USA church does not have much in the way of prayer posture traditions. A few of us from a charismatic background do raise our hands sometimes.
I can relate to you in this- many think that in the Charismatic movement it is for 'show' but I didn't see it that way at all (even though one could I suppose be faking the worship) but I found it to be a very real way of worshipping the Lord, looking up as you say (Jesus looked up to pray) but also times of kneeling, humbling, really the posture seemed to be dependent on whether worshipping in adoration, or intercession, or crying out to God, or humble confession and seeking-
I was never accustomed to 'rote' prayer or posture having been in this type of setting most of my Christian life-but while you are in prayer like this, it is between you and the Lord- period-
Where we are attending now does not practice most of this at all, kneeling, raising hands (there are a few) etc- but I realize that most churches being somewhat Sola Scriptura in trying to figure these things out are still attempting to be close to the Lord in however they understand that to be, in prayer-
After I began attending AoG Wednesday evening services (still in the MB church house for Sunday services), on one occasion we were late getting there, and had to sit in the balcony. I was ashamed to realize how much the others seated around me had to do with how I worshiped. (But maybe I shouldn't have been? Does this just illustrate how the body works, and how easily we can "urge one another on to good works"?)
Possibly although in situations in Church where things are more uniform it probably is to remove these tendencies- I know what you mean by this which is why I tend to try, when in worship and prayer I tend to try to forget whose around me but even still with eyes open it's hard not to be self conscious- having come from Pentecost/Charismatic for decades, suddenly going where this lifting of hands isn't practiced, I wrestle with it- it comes natural for me to lift my hands, palms open, and certain other ways-depending on the situation- (mostly during worship songs) but I don't want to draw attention away from the Lord by doing this- either- it's been a little difficult to change or even decide if I should (my husband has never been one to lift hands.
I guess the question might be what do we do when we are all alone? At home? Is it consistent? Or is some of this reserved for the assembling of the saints together only, like some say veiling is?
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Re: Prayer Postures

Post by Neto »

Valerie wrote:
Neto wrote: After I began attending AoG Wednesday evening services (still in the MB church house for Sunday services), on one occasion we were late getting there, and had to sit in the balcony. I was ashamed to realize how much the others seated around me had to do with how I worshiped. (But maybe I shouldn't have been? Does this just illustrate how the body works, and how easily we can "urge one another on to good works"?)
Possibly although in situations in Church where things are more uniform it probably is to remove these tendencies- I know what you mean by this which is why I tend to try, when in worship and prayer I tend to try to forget whose around me but even still with eyes open it's hard not to be self conscious- having come from Pentecost/Charismatic for decades, suddenly going where this lifting of hands isn't practiced, I wrestle with it- it comes natural for me to lift my hands, palms open, and certain other ways-depending on the situation- (mostly during worship songs) but I don't want to draw attention away from the Lord by doing this- either- it's been a little difficult to change or even decide if I should (my husband has never been one to lift hands.
I guess the question might be what do we do when we are all alone? At home? Is it consistent? Or is some of this reserved for the assembling of the saints together only, like some say veiling is?
Did you ever attend services with a Jesus People congregation? (The AoG services were much more 'institutionalized', or seemed all planned out.) There was one particular one in Minnesota that I went to a few times (until they started doing stuff that was contrary to Scripture), and one thing I really liked about it was that there was not a lot of surface talk going on when you came in before the actual service started. There might be small groups here & there praying and 'dancing' - I put it in quotes because it was not like what people think of as dancing, it was more like just jumping, with your hands raised. I sometimes still do that privately, but would never think of doing it in our Mennonite services. (I just do it inside.) I'll readily admit that I've always been an emotional person, and things that took place during the year 2007 broke me and remade me in ways that have made me even more so. So while I don't often raise hands in our services, I often just stand there with the tears running down my face. No one has ever mentioned it to me, and I have no idea what others think. Doesn't matter. But I still can't get completely unaware of other people around me, so the full expression is kept for private times by myself.
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Re: Prayer Postures

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I think it is right and good that we are effected by others in the service. If we weren't, then why go?
I mean if it's all about myself and my God, I could stay home.
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Sudsy
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Re: Prayer Postures

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Neto wrote: Did you ever attend services with a Jesus People congregation? (The AoG services were much more 'institutionalized', or seemed all planned out.) There was one particular one in Minnesota that I went to a few times (until they started doing stuff that was contrary to Scripture), and one thing I really liked about it was that there was not a lot of surface talk going on when you came in before the actual service started. There might be small groups here & there praying and 'dancing' - I put it in quotes because it was not like what people think of as dancing, it was more like just jumping, with your hands raised. I sometimes still do that privately, but would never think of doing it in our Mennonite services. (I just do it inside.) I'll readily admit that I've always been an emotional person, and things that took place during the year 2007 broke me and remade me in ways that have made me even more so. So while I don't often raise hands in our services, I often just stand there with the tears running down my face. No one has ever mentioned it to me, and I have no idea what others think. Doesn't matter. But I still can't get completely unaware of other people around me, so the full expression is kept for private times by myself.
No, never had the opportunity to go to a Jesus People congregation. But I am quite familiar with churches that have prayer going on before, during and after a meeting. I grew up in a church, where on Sunday evenings the service was tailored to evangelize and believers would come early to go into a prayer room and pray for the souls of anyone coming to visit the church. And we did have many visitors. I was a deacon once in an Evangelical Baptist church and the 5 of us would pray during the sermon for God to convict of sin. Many came forward to receive Christ in those days. In the Pentecostal church it was automatic to go from the last hymn directly to a prayer room or gather at the front in prayer. Nowadays, the trend I see is before service get your favourite coffee at the cafe area (and maybe a muffin or whatever), take it with you into the sanctuary and feed your face before and/or while the worship begins. I recently visited the Pentecostal church I grew up in and that is what was going on.

Well, Neto, you sound somewhat like me. I often have tears both during worship and when the preacher hits on a truth that is emotionally overwhelming but am not one to wave my hands around much. I know what emotionalism is about and seen it used in my years but it is not the emotion that comes from focus on God and spiritual truths. I despise the former and look forward to the latter. The latter I experience throughout the day as the Holy Spirit brings scriptures to me remembrance. I am not afraid to tear up as a man and glad that this is one area that Pentecostalism allowed me to be comfortable with. Seems to be harder for other groups who have been raised in a more stoic setting, especially men.
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