Without fault

[Soloist]

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Eph 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

2Pe 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Rev 3:4  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

What does it mean for a church to be without spot or wrinkle?
What does it mean to be found blameless without spot?
How does this work with the statement “there is no perfect church”?

[Sudsy]

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Eph 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

2Pe 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Rev 3:4  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

What does it mean for a church to be without spot or wrinkle?
What does it mean to be found blameless without spot?
How does this work with the statement “there is no perfect church”?

Good questions and I hope the answers will include scriptural texts.

I will wait to read how others respond before I give my own.

[Szdfan]

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

What does it mean for a church to be without spot or wrinkle?
What does it mean to be found blameless without spot?
How does this work with the statement “there is no perfect church”?

I think the verse from John 8 is being misinterpreted. Jesus' intention is not to encourage those who are without sin to throw stones at the adulteress. Instead, he is highlighting the universal presence of sin, implying that no one possesses the "right" or authority to condemn the adulteress to death.

[Josh]

I disagree. He was highlighting that the people ready to condemn the adulteress were guilty of the same unrepentant sin.

The rest of the NT is quite clear that, yes, Christians can condemn adultery and in fact we are expected to judge and excommunicate adulterers.

[Chris]

I agree with Josh. The Bride of Christ is a chaste virgin. In the case of the church (gathering/body), sins must be repented of or excommunicated out. This way when the bridegroom returns, the church is without blemish etc.

[Szdfan]

I disagree. He was highlighting that the people ready to condemn the adulteress were guilty of the same unrepentant sin.

There is nothing in John 8 itself that suggests the Pharisees were guilty of the same unrepentant sin. Jesus doesn't accuse them of unrepentant adultery, he points out that the Pharisees do not have the authority (even under the Law) to stone her because they are also sinners.

1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

I think it's important to note that Jesus doesn't say that adultery is okay. He does call the woman to repetance and change (Go now and leave your life of sin") but he also does not condemn her to death as the Pharisees did.

I think this is a passage about the grace of Jesus coupled with His call for change. Jesus's compassion is contrasted with the harsh legalism of the Pharisees. It's a passage about their hypocrisy.

I don't think this is a passage about the purity of the church. It's also not a passage about excommunication.

[Neto]

The background of the story may well help sort it out a bit more. The Law condemned both the man and the woman caught in adultery. They claimed that she had been "caught in the act". So where was the man? She was, in a way, set up, not out of malice toward her, but toward Jesus. It was a trap. She was just "collateral damage". So they were not going by the Law they pretended to be upholding. They were taking on the task of judging for themselves, not honoring God, or the Law. So whether they themselves were guilty of the same sin in which the woman was caught was immaterial - they were guilty of a far worse sin.

[Sudsy]

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Eph 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

2Pe 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Rev 3:4  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

What does it mean for a church to be without spot or wrinkle?
What does it mean to be found blameless without spot?
How does this work with the statement “there is no perfect church”?

What I understand scriptures in this area to say is that positionally a believer in Christ is without spot or wrinkle. I am perfect when I accept the free gift of salvation that makes me a redeemed child of God. As 1 Cor 6 says in describing various manifestations of sin that now (verse 6) 'And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.' In other words since you are the spotless bride of Christ, live as such.

Sanctification is also progressive. I am in the process of living more sanctified in practise as I mature and reflect now what I positionally already am if I have been born again.

Ultimately, when I see Jesus, I will experience that perfect realm of being completely sin free.

'There is no perfect church' is a correct statement if it means, no church (group of believers) are 100% never sinning in practise. But there is a perfect 'Church' of all believers in Christ even though while we live here we have our imperfections being worked on as the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinning and we repent.

I realize others have a different understanding of this but I have yet to meet a professing believer that in a short period of time it is obvious that they, in practise, do sin. These forums reflect the fact that we all sin as we grow to become more like Jesus.

[Soloist]

I think it's important to note that Jesus doesn't say that adultery is okay. He does call the woman to repetance and change (Go now and leave your life of sin") but he also does not condemn her to death as the Pharisees did.

I think this is a passage about the grace of Jesus coupled with His call for change. Jesus's compassion is contrasted with the harsh legalism of the Pharisees. It's a passage about their hypocrisy.

I don't think this is a passage about the purity of the church. It's also not a passage about excommunication.

I wasn’t saying it was. I was actually pointing out the sinless nature of Christ contrasted with the sinful. It says without fault which sounds like pure/unspotted/without wrinkle

[Szdfan]

I think it's important to note that Jesus doesn't say that adultery is okay. He does call the woman to repetance and change (Go now and leave your life of sin") but he also does not condemn her to death as the Pharisees did.

I think this is a passage about the grace of Jesus coupled with His call for change. Jesus's compassion is contrasted with the harsh legalism of the Pharisees. It's a passage about their hypocrisy.

I don't think this is a passage about the purity of the church. It's also not a passage about excommunication.

I wasn’t saying it was. I was actually pointing out the sinless nature of Christ contrasted with the sinful. It says without fault which sounds like pure/unspotted/without wrinkle

I appreciate the clarification. Thanks.