Poll: Elders/Bishops/Overseers/Presbyters

[Soloist]

To answer the question one must first consider why higher education is problematic. This answer isn’t palatable to most people but higher education tends to impact people in ways which are not apparent.
1: with preachers, the education they receive often impacts their world view on what they actually believe and tends to shift to a more educated opinion on what was really meant by what Jesus taught or other Biblical teachings
2: secular education particularly Biology tends to teach propaganda that doesn’t have factual basis and tends to be difficult to continually be tested on and have to memorize. This is similar in concept to brainwashing except everyone in the Biology class doesn’t view it as such.
Can someone resist this stuff? Sure but it’s rare among people who never were exposed to this stuff growing up and were not taught a counter view.
I have been educated, I know others feel differently here but higher education can cause problems and spiritually it’s dangerous. I see a far bigger threat though from seminary then medical school. It certainly doesn’t have to but history hasn’t been very favorable to higher education building people that remain faithful members of conservative Mennonite churches. This is likely why the conservative churches either forbid or strongly discourage higher education. The mid conservatives and less are far more willing to get higher education and the trend is to head less conservative as the time passes.
Flip side of this, the older conservative groups have other problems and remaining conservative while growing more spiritually dead isn’t good either.

[mike]

I lean that way also.

Are we content with going to a doctor that acquired his skills the same way?

I'd be fine with a doctor who apprenticed another good doctor and didn't go to school. I'd prefer one that did both.

But I don't compare doctoring with preaching. I think there have been many good preachers who listened to other preachers who communicated well, and then they developed their own good style.

I have a hard time listening to preachers whose sermons come across as "trained". It feels so unnatural to me. Sort of like listening to a politician using a tele-prompter and copying someone else's style.

A preacher can preach a "good" sermon without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you. I'm just wondering what the real objection is to a person being trained to do something. We don't have a problem with a person seeking training in many other fields; why object to a person studying public speaking, theology, history, writing, Bible, etc.? Many of these topics can be studied at conservative Anabaptist schools like Faith Builders or SMBI, or by reading Anabaptist authors. I think many Spirit-filled speakers would do themselves a favor to study public speaking and other topics even if only by reading a book or two. If a Spirit-filled preacher makes a point that is logically, historically, or theologically false, it is distracting from their message.

Let me give you an example. A well known bishop for many years in a conservative Anabaptist church, introducing a teacher's conference on the theme of TRUTH, mentioned how blessed he was that TRUTH has the same number of letters as the word JESUS. I sat in the audience and counted the letters of the word DEVIL to myself. It seemed like an intellectually vapid point.

[Ernie]

Let me give you an example. A well known bishop for many years in a conservative Anabaptist church, introducing a teacher's conference on the theme of TRUTH, mentioned how blessed he was that TRUTH has the same number of letters as the word JESUS. I sat in the audience and counted the letters of the word DEVIL to myself. It seemed like an intellectually vapid point.

Yes. Being boring is one thing. Being trite and naive is another thing I would hope to avoid.

[Ernie]

The primary issue I see is how we acquire the oratory skill. I appreciate a well spoken sermon but not at the cost of going to a school.

I lean that way also.

I am fine with going to places like SMBI and Faith Builders to get some education and tips on public speaking. But when it goes beyond that to... "Here is how you should put a sermon together and here is how you should present it and here is how long each section should be and here is how many points you should have"... that is when I begin getting uncomfortable. Critique people for things that annoy and bore others but let people develop their own style in conjucntion with natural gifting, developed gifting, and guided by the Holy Spirit.

[Ernie]

The mid conservatives and less are far more willing to get higher education and the trend is to head less conservative as the time passes. Flip side of this, the older conservative groups have other problems and remaining conservative while growing more spiritually dead isn’t good either.

It is interesting to me that while many mid conservatives are transitioning to no longer being conservative, many Old Orders and ultra-conservatives do look to mid-conservatives for transferring money to needy people in other countries, for filtered news, for counseling, for book inspiration, etc. (things they don't know much about or have restrictions that keep them from offering the same things.)

[mike]

The primary issue I see is how we acquire the oratory skill. I appreciate a well spoken sermon but not at the cost of going to a school.

I lean that way also.

I am fine with going to places like SMBI and Faith Builders to get some education and tips on public speaking. But when it goes beyond that to... "Here is how you should put a sermon together and here is how you should present it and here is how long each section should be and here is how many points you should have"... that is when I begin getting uncomfortable. Critique people for things that annoy and bore others but let people develop their own style in conjucntion with natural gifting, developed gifting, and guided by the Holy Spirit.

Sure. And I don't want to get the cart before the horse. The big thing is content. The content has to be Holy Spirit inspired truth. The whole concern about style is not to put style above substance. The goal is to deliver content effectively and in such a way that it brings about positive change in the listeners. The 12 disciples were not highly educated for the most part, but no one was more effective than they in taking out the message of Jesus to the world. Unfortunately, what we often have today is people who have in their hands that same message but don't seem to know how to deliver it to their own congregations, let alone the world, with anything like that kind of effectiveness.

[Ernie]

Sure. And I don't want to get the cart before the horse. The big thing is content. The content has to be Holy Spirit inspired truth. The whole concern about style is not to put style above substance. The goal is to deliver content effectively and in such a way that it brings about positive change in the listeners. The 12 disciples were not highly educated for the most part, but no one was more effective than they in taking out the message of Jesus to the world. Unfortunately, what we often have today is people who have in their hands that same message but don't seem to know how to deliver it to their own congregations, let alone the world, with anything like that kind of effectiveness.

I couldn't agree more.

[joshuabgood]

Sure. And I don't want to get the cart before the horse. The big thing is content. The content has to be Holy Spirit inspired truth. The whole concern about style is not to put style above substance. The goal is to deliver content effectively and in such a way that it brings about positive change in the listeners. The 12 disciples were not highly educated for the most part, but no one was more effective than they in taking out the message of Jesus to the world. Unfortunately, what we often have today is people who have in their hands that same message but don't seem to know how to deliver it to their own congregations, let alone the world, with anything like that kind of effectiveness.

I couldn't agree more.

Though the primary writers of the NT were educated, Paul and Luke.

[Ernie]

Sure. And I don't want to get the cart before the horse. The big thing is content. The content has to be Holy Spirit inspired truth. The whole concern about style is not to put style above substance. The goal is to deliver content effectively and in such a way that it brings about positive change in the listeners. The 12 disciples were not highly educated for the most part, but no one was more effective than they in taking out the message of Jesus to the world. Unfortunately, what we often have today is people who have in their hands that same message but don't seem to know how to deliver it to their own congregations, let alone the world, with anything like that kind of effectiveness.

I couldn't agree more.

Though the primary writers of the NT were educated, Paul and Luke.

Paul inferred that he had the skills to really put on a show at preaching, but didn't use them because he didn't want people to be persuaded by skill. He wanted it to be the Holy Spirit. At the same time, his knowledge made what he had to say more convincing, and I think this is what Mike is referring to.