Poll: Elders/Bishops/Overseers/Presbyters

[Ernie]

I do think that age is important. Sure, 'not a new convert' is a Biblical specification, and is not to be ignored. I initially chose 40 +, but changed it to 30 +, as a sort of concession. Our congregation just ordained another minister, and he & his wife are only expecting their first child. (Under 30.)

As for 'elders', I realize that as a person who is getting close to 70, I should not think that the 'elders' must be older than I. But lately we are getting 'Youngers', not 'Elders' (in their mid twenties). Below 30 years of age? I really don't think so.

I really think that business experience should not enter into the equation at all - zilch. Not 'natural charisma', either. (Often described as 'leadership gifting'.) I feel that a heart for people is more important than all of that, even speaking ability. But then I'm talking about PASTORS, not preachers or 'ministers'. (Although 'minister' SHOULD mean 'pastor', but sadly, in my experience and observation it does not.) What I'm saying is that the relationships between the pastor and the people on the individual level is the most important facet of the pastoral ministry. Preaching is only one hour (at most) per week. I also feel that 'pastor' is a spiritual leadership position, and that pastors should be left free of all of the non-spiritual congregational management responsibilities. Especially if the man is a business owner, or is in a business management position.

Missionary work is not a 'proving ground' for church leadership positions. It is of at least equal importance in the work of the kingdom.

I think I've said enough to maybe upset some people already, so I'll stop there. I'd better.

You don't upset me at all. I am right with you.

[Ernie]

I think it’s good when lay brethren get up and give a message. Most of the brethren at church have good things to say and share.

I am glad you find it this way at your church.

Is it possible to have good things to share but bore people to death? That has been my experience. I suggest that such folks share what they have to say in small groups outside of church.

[Josh]

I think it’s good when lay brethren get up and give a message. Most of the brethren at church have good things to say and share.

I am glad you find it this way at your church.

Is it possible to have good things to share but bore people to death? That has been my experience. I suggest that such folks share what they have to say in small groups outside of church.

In cases where lay brethren share a message, usually others ask the person to, which mediates this problem a bit. Or it’s in a very small congregation. The more common problem is the person only shares for 10 minutes, and many people expect a much longer “sermon”.

[Soloist]

Is it possible to have good things to share but bore people to death? That has been my experience. I suggest that such folks share what they have to say in small groups outside of church.

I know it was suggested either by you or someone else that needing well spoken sermons versus simple less educated ones was a negative thing and learning to learn from lowly speakers was good and to our spiritual good.

[mike]

I think it’s good when lay brethren get up and give a message. Most of the brethren at church have good things to say and share.

In our church, lay brothers speak frequently, but only for short periods, and it's never called a "message" or sermon. We have devotionals or topics, and of course teach Sunday school.

[Grace]

This possibly would be a whole other topic, but what are our expectations in sermons from our Ministers/Bishops? Especially on Sunday Mornings. I am not opposed to small antidotes from a minister's life that are relevant to the message. But there have been times I heard messages that had way to many personal pronouns in them. In teaching adult ladies Sunday school for many years, I found the best guidelines to follow are, to make my teaching about the Lord, His Word and the ladies in my class. When that is the central focus, there is very little left for "Me, Myself and I". Sharing too much about oneself, can really be boring and there have been times that type of sharing crosses the line into the realm of bragging.

[Ernie]

Is it possible to have good things to share but bore people to death? That has been my experience. I suggest that such folks share what they have to say in small groups outside of church.

I know it was suggested either by you or someone else that needing well spoken sermons versus simple less educated ones was a negative thing and learning to learn from lowly speakers was good and to our spiritual good.

I think it is possible to preach simple less educated sermons by lowly speakers without being boring. But if we end up having a boring sermon, then we might as well make the best use of time and profit from it. I find it hard though to convince the unchurched and less churched of this.

[Ernie]

This possibly would be a whole other topic, but what are our expectations in sermons from our Ministers/Bishops? Especially on Sunday Mornings. I am not opposed to small antidotes from a minister's life that are relevant to the message. But there have been times I heard messages that had way to many personal pronouns in them. In teaching adult ladies Sunday school for many years, I found the best guidelines to follow are, to make my teaching about the Lord, His Word and the ladies in my class. When that is the central focus, there is very little left for "Me, Myself and I". Sharing too much about oneself, can really be boring and there have been times that type of sharing crosses the line into the realm of bragging.

I agree.

[Soloist]

I think it is possible to preach simple less educated sermons by lowly speakers without being boring. But if we end up having a boring sermon, then we might as well make the best use of time and profit from it. I find it hard though to convince the unchurched and less churched of this.

Now ten years later, I am again part of a church that has a lot of boring teaching and preaching. While I don't enjoy it, I have been forced to acknowledge a reality.
The bulk of charactered Anabaptists I know have sat through thousands of hours of subpar preaching and teaching. The discipline of being able to do this seems to produce spiritual dividends that are not readily apparent. At least half of the pastors, teachers, and community leaders in moderate-conservative and progressive-conservative churches come from the more orderish Anabaptist stock. There is something about the historical Anabaptist worldview (rooted in community gelassenheit) that produces a product of substance that is rarely seen in the groups I interact with presently. I am where I am because I can pursue visions that I could not pursue in the old orderish churches, but I am no longer blind to what is missing in the groups I interact with now.

do you believe that the value of the old is diminished enough to seek more enjoyable sermons for the unchurched or lost?
How do you think this value you describe would be passed down to new generations if they are built on well orated sermons?
I don’t disagree with you on either side, while I appreciate Finny’s sermons, I don’t appreciate his direction.

[Heirbyadoption]

Is it possible to have good things to share but bore people to death? That has been my experience. I suggest that such folks share what they have to say in small groups outside of church.

I know it was suggested either by you or someone else that needing well spoken sermons versus simple less educated ones was a negative thing and learning to learn from lowly speakers was good and to our spiritual good.

I disrecall whether I mentioned this here before or not, but this is actually an ongoing conversation in our congregation. Our congregation organized after a church split 13 years ago with 2 deacons and no ministers (a temporary oversite minister was appointed from elsewhere), and with time we have elected 2 ministers and a deacon. At the beginning, the congregation agreed to use any willing lay brothers to assist by rotation with the opening/devotional time, and also the sermon message.

Even after we had elected ministers, however, the mind of the congregation (and the ministers) has been to continue to use lay brethren to assist in the same capacity, so the two ordained ministers each take the main message 1 time per month (usually one on 2nd Sundays, one on 4th), and there is a rotation of perhaps 10 brothers who are still willing to assist as needed (organized and overseen by the ministers). We will likely ordain a 3rd minister and deacon within the year and the formal use of lay brethren giving the main message will naturally diminish, but one of our greatest challenges in this context (similar to the quoted one above) has been how to address those brethren who are willing to assist but who are truly not apt to teach...

Ultimately, the address of that situation will fall into the hands of our ordained brethren, I suppose, but there is a hesitance to say much about it yet as our lay brethren have honestly provided a much needed support and very real blessing in their willingness to assist our ordained brethren in this capacity, especially during the first (somewhat tumultuous) decade after organization. Nevertheless, we can relate to Ernie's difficulty in convincing the unchurched/less-churched and others of the benefit of just making the best of it while the situation continues. I agree that there really doesn't have to be much polish in a message, but the delivery of the Word should still draw and edify people, it would seem...