1 John 3

[Josh]

(See what sort of love the Father has given to us: that we should be called God’s children—and indeed we are! For this reason the world does not know us: because it did not know him. Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope focused on him purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure).

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness—the one who does not love his fellow Christian—is not of God.

[Josh]

A friend of mine sent me a message this morning that reading this was rough for him - indeed - it was terrifying.

I thought about this, particularly in light of our recent "Why Obey?" thread. This passage seems particularly clear: those of us who are followers of Christ don't continue to sin, and there aren't any excuses for sin; let no one deceive you.

I am not claiming here to be sinless, but I do think part of being a follower of Jesus is victory over sin, including me, as a follower of Jesus, choosing to follow Jesus instead of choosing to keep sinning. Whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

What are everyone else's thoughts? I feel somewhat convicted myself to think long and hard about things that I know are good to do, and perhaps am not doing them.

[Sudsy]

A friend of mine sent me a message this morning that reading this was rough for him - indeed - it was terrifying.

I thought about this, particularly in light of our recent "Why Obey?" thread. This passage seems particularly clear: those of us who are followers of Christ don't continue to sin, and there aren't any excuses for sin; let no one deceive you.

I am not claiming here to be sinless, but I do think part of being a follower of Jesus is victory over sin, including me, as a follower of Jesus, choosing to follow Jesus instead of choosing to keep sinning. Whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

What are everyone else's thoughts? I feel somewhat convicted myself to think long and hard about things that I know are good to do, and perhaps am not doing them.

It is interesting how this is followed by the main identifier of one who knows God - one who loves their fellow Christian. Not one who loves those within his church group but those who are fellow Christians. If we hate other Christians it says we are a murderer at heart and do not have eternal life. Then he adds that belief in Christ is also involved and if we have belief and love other believers we will have fellowship with God and know God lives in us by His Spirit.

[Josh]

Indeed - but sin is still sin. I don't see any excuses in 1 John 3 for wilful sin.

[Sudsy]

Indeed - but sin is still sin. I don't see any excuses in 1 John 3 for wilful sin.

Wilful sinning should not be the MO of a true, born again believer. Does a true believer sometimes wilfully sin and remain as a believer ? I believe there are scriptures that say yes. When we sin we break fellowship with God but I believe we are still His adopted child. The 'standing at the door and knocking' text is speaking about Christians. But Paul says in Romans 6 - "Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

There are many other scriptures that say we do continue sinning as while in these bodies we will continue to fight our flesh which is not regenerated. Yet we do have access to victory over any sin if we walk in the Spirit. We are to regard ourselves as dead to sin not to regard ourselves as helplessly sinners. We must put off the old and put on the new. Don't regard ourselves as sinners like unbelievers but rather saints that through Jesus are made righteous. Little by little we should be sinning less as we spiritually mature.

[Josh]

I find it hard to reconcile this verse with the "we will always keep giving in to sin the rest of our lives" mindset:

Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.

Ouch!

[Adam]

There are many other scriptures that say we do continue sinning as while in these bodies we will continue to fight our flesh which is not regenerated.

Sudsy, can you direct me to some of these other Scriptures? I would like to review them so that I can understand better what you are saying.

[cmbl]

I have a friend I would love to see cease using pornography.

Sadly, he's a true believer, saved by grace alone through faith alone. He's not an easy-believist; he quotes Romans 6 a lot. He explained to me that I ought to treat him as a brother, because in Christianity you will continue to sin, it's just that you get progressively sanctified over time (little by little sin less). But progressive sanctification takes a lifetime, and so I should remain in Christian fellowship with him, though he goes on using porn.

Needless to say, my opinion of "little by little sin less" is extremely low. It sure sounds pious, but I don't observe the true believers who "should" sin less actually making objective, measurable progress against sin. We are left holding in one hand the pleasures of sin, in the other the consolations of religion.

It does interest me that my friend often quotes Romans 6, but I don't think he's really wrestled with 1 John. I guess this "you will continue to sin" mindset is (more?) compatible with Romans 6 than 1 John.

[Bootstrap]

The entire book of 1 John discusses this from many different perspectives. It is very clear that we must not sin - but also that we are never without sin, and there is only one thing to do when we sin. We need to read 1 John 3 in light of 1 John 1:

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In our zeal for righteousness, we can be tempted to be in denial about our sin. That's not good. Or we can be afraid to keep coming back for forgiveness when we fall down, afraid that Jesus is not there for us. That's not good either. We need to walk in the light, walk in fellowship, and keep turning to Jesus to cleanse our sin when we fall down. And if we say we never fall down, we are deceiving ourselves.

In 1 John, it's also clear that love is one of the most important ways to measure righteousness, and that hatred blinds our eyes to our unrighteousness.

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

And here is one important way that love is measured:

By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

[Bootstrap]

I find it hard to reconcile this verse with the "we will always keep giving in to sin the rest of our lives" mindset:

Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.

But the same book also tells us this:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I don't think we should use that as an excuse to sin, and things like porn are a clear sign of a problem that needs fixing. But I suspect most of us have sins that we are in denial about, sins we aren't paying enough attention to. 1 John is written to make us zealous to get beyond that. And it seems to focus largely on sins that involve not really loving our brethren. I'm guessing few of us ever get perfect on that front.