Revelation 13, The Beast, and the Mark of the Beast

[PetrChelcicky]

The most "modern" sounding parts of the story are:
"they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,..."
Are there any Biblical or historical sources for that? Or is it prophecy of future political strategies?

[Heirbyadoption]

Also Revelation 19:12 seems like it might be intended to contrast here:

[The Rider of a White Horse’s] eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
It seems that Jesus has another mark of his own as well. See also verse 16.

We just went through this passage in our Biblestudy this past week. It was interesting to note that Jesus has (at least) four distinct names mentioned between verse 11 and verse 16, at least two of them being written upon Him (one being the name only He knows):

1. Faithful & True
2. A name only He knows
3. The Word of God
4. King of Kings & Lord of Lords

[Heirbyadoption]

The most "modern" sounding parts of the story are:
"they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,..."
Are there any Biblical or historical sources for that? Or is it prophecy of future political strategies?

The answer to this seems to depend very heavily on which interpretative lens each individual considers to be most harmonious with the rest of the Scriptures:

Preterist
Historicist
Idealist (allegorical)
Futurist

[Pelerin]

Also Revelation 19:12 seems like it might be intended to contrast here:

[The Rider of a White Horse’s] eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
It seems that Jesus has another mark of his own as well. See also verse 16.

We just went through this passage in our Biblestudy this past week. It was interesting to note that Jesus has (at least) four distinct names mentioned between verse 11 and verse 16, at least two of them being written upon Him (one being the name only He knows):

1. Faithful & True
2. A name only He knows
3. The Word of God
4. King of Kings & Lord of Lords

When I wrote my post, I wondered if the name written on Jesus’ forehead is the Father’s. If there is a connection intended between this and the other marks—and this is Revelation, so I’m inclined to believe everything that can be connected was intended to be connected—then just like the saints are marked to show they belong to Jesus, Jesus himself is marked to show he belongs to the Father and he alone knows the Father. Something similar to the idea in Matthew 11:27.

[Bootstrap]

The most "modern" sounding parts of the story are:
"they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,..."
Are there any Biblical or historical sources for that? Or is it prophecy of future political strategies?

The answer to this seems to depend very heavily on which interpretative lens each individual considers to be most harmonious with the rest of the Scriptures:

Preterist
Historicist
Idealist (allegorical)
Futurist

Craig Keener mentions this:

https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what ... -the-beast

Revelation 13:17 says “they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.”

You could do little in commerce in the ancient world (13:17) without handling such a “mark,” because allusions to the emperor’s divinity appeared on many coins and even shipping bills and other documents.

In fact, a mid-third-century emperor demanded certificates of sacrifice to the emperor to participate in commerce and escape prosecution; he likely sought to eradicate Christians.

[Heirbyadoption]

The most "modern" sounding parts of the story are:
"they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,..."
Are there any Biblical or historical sources for that? Or is it prophecy of future political strategies?

The answer to this seems to depend very heavily on which interpretative lens each individual considers to be most harmonious with the rest of the Scriptures:

Preterist
Historicist
Idealist (allegorical)
Futurist

Craig Keener mentions this:

https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what ... -the-beast

Revelation 13:17 says “they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.”

You could do little in commerce in the ancient world (13:17) without handling such a “mark,” because allusions to the emperor’s divinity appeared on many coins and even shipping bills and other documents.

In fact, a mid-third-century emperor demanded certificates of sacrifice to the emperor to participate in commerce and escape prosecution; he likely sought to eradicate Christians.

So are you inclined to think that this "mark" was already been fulfilled in the Roman Empire and Caesar, or that such things were but a type of another mark yet to come, or something else altogether?

[Bootstrap]

Craig Keener mentions this:

https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/what ... -the-beast

You could do little in commerce in the ancient world (13:17) without handling such a “mark,” because allusions to the emperor’s divinity appeared on many coins and even shipping bills and other documents.

In fact, a mid-third-century emperor demanded certificates of sacrifice to the emperor to participate in commerce and escape prosecution; he likely sought to eradicate Christians.

So are you inclined to think that this "mark" was already been fulfilled in the Roman Empire and Caesar, or that such things were but a type of another mark yet to come, or something else altogether?

Above, I quoted Craig Keener to answer Petr's question, whether there were historical precedents that this might refer to. I think there were. But I don't think that means that this passage is no longer relevant to us today, and I do not know whether or not to believe that this particular chapter has been fulfilled in the past. I'm inclined to think the answer is "yes and no".

I think this passage was very meaningful to Christians at the time it was written, and that they saw parallels to other things that were happening at the time. I think it has been meaningful to Christians suffering persecution at other times throughout history, who also saw parallels in their times. And I think it will continue to be meaningful to Christians suffering persecution in times to come.

In this thread, I think it's particularly important to focus on where Christians should look for help and how God responds. I don't think, for instance, that the Revelation tells us we will be saved by any modern political leader, or encourages us to think of any political leader as "God's anointed".

[RZehr]

Revelation 13 mentions some very specific things that the first beast has:
Verse 1:
It rises out of the sea;
It has seven heads;
It has ten horns;
On its heads a blasphemous name;
Verse 2:
Like a leopard, feet like a bear, mouth like a lion;
The dragon gave the beast his power, throne and authority;
Verse 3:
A terrible head wound, that is healed;
The world followed the beast;
Verse 4:
People worshiped the dragon and the beast saying “Who is like the beast? And who is able to make war with him?”
Verse 5:
The beast spoke for 42 months;

And we could go on. What I want to know, is why does it make sense to not believe that these very graphic and specific descriptions should not be taken as literal as the “mark of the beast”? Why should i concern myself with identifying a literal mark at all until I see a literal beast come out of the literal sea with seven literal heads, and ten literal horns, and on his heads a literal blasphemous name?

Separately, I wonder what it says about my faith, if I’m most concerned about my ability to do business?

I am far from knowledgeable on this book. So these aren’t really questions that are merely meant to prove much, but rather simple basic questions that I am genuinely curious about.
I’m going to read a bit more about Revelation 13 and 14. This month. I have a book on Revelations that is a four view parallel commentary - historical, preterist, futurist, spiritual.

[Bootstrap]

Revelation 13 mentions some very specific things that the first beast has:
Verse 1:
It rises out of the sea;
It has seven heads;
It has ten horns;
On its heads a blasphemous name;
Verse 2:
Like a leopard, feet like a bear, mouth like a lion;
The dragon gave the beast his power, throne and authority;
Verse 3:
A terrible head wound, that is healed;
The world followed the beast;
Verse 4:
People worshiped the dragon and the beast saying “Who is like the beast? And who is able to make war with him?”
Verse 5:
The beast spoke for 42 months;

And we could go on. What I want to know, is why does it make sense to not believe that these very graphic and specific descriptions should not be taken as literal as the “mark of the beast”? Why should i concern myself with identifying a literal mark at all until I see a literal beast come out of the literal sea with seven literal heads, and ten literal horns, and on his heads a literal blasphemous name?

Apocalyptic writing uses a lot of symbolism, e.g. the 7 lamps to represent 7 churches. Some of this is clearly explained, some of it is left ambiguous so we're not sure if it's symbolic or literal, some of it seems plainly symbolic and would be hard to view as literal.

My take: this is part of what it means that nobody knows the time or seasons, but the Father will reveal it to us when it is time. Personally, I think that was true for the early Christians, it will be true in the end times, and it has been true for some others. But I think it's also undeniable that in some periods of history, some groups of Christians were misled with apocalyptic imagery, doing things completely at odds with what Jesus or the Revelation tell us Christians should do. The imagery is very emotional and compelling, so if some false teacher can inject his own message and associate it with the imagery, it can be a very effective way to lead people astray, distracting them from the teachings of Jesus.

For one example of this kind of symbolism, consider Revelation 5:

5:5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

The elder says the Lion can open the seals, but when he looks, it's actually a lamb. And it's not a root either. But will Jesus be a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes in heaven, or is that symbolic? What exactly are the seven spirits of God?

Separately, I wonder what it says about my faith, if I’m most concerned about my ability to do business?

Amen. The Revelation tells us pretty clearly what we should be most concerned about.

I am far from knowledgeable on this book. So these aren’t really questions that are merely meant to prove much, but rather simple basic questions that I am genuinely curious about.
I’m going to read a bit more about Revelation 13 and 14. This month. I have a book on Revelations that is a four view parallel commentary - historical, preterist, futurist, spiritual.

Nice. What's the book?

[RZehr]

It’s it called Revelation. It says Four Views, A Parallel Commentary.
Edited by Steve Gregg, forward by Dr. Robert Clouse. Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville. Copyright 1997.