Why Obey ?

[Josh]

Yet Jesus never told people to accept Protestant salvation in order to escape hell.

He did tell people to stop sinning so that they wouldn't go to hell.

[MattY]

Why obey? Obedience glorifies God (1 Peter 2:12 and Matt. 5:16); there is blessing in obedience (John 13:17 and James 1:25), though not necessarily materially and nothing like the prosperity gospel teaches. It is part of our assurance of salvation (1 John 2:3). Ultimately, we obey because we love God (1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15).

[Josh]

Why obey? Obedience glorifies God (1 Peter 2:12 and Matt. 5:16); there is blessing in obedience (John 13:17 and James 1:25), though not necessarily materially and nothing like the prosperity gospel teaches. It is part of our assurance of salvation (1 John 2:3). Ultimately, we obey because we love God (1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15).

How would you talk to an unchurched / unbelieving person on "why obey"?

[MattY]

Why obey? Obedience glorifies God (1 Peter 2:12 and Matt. 5:16); there is blessing in obedience (John 13:17 and James 1:25), though not necessarily materially and nothing like the prosperity gospel teaches. It is part of our assurance of salvation (1 John 2:3). Ultimately, we obey because we love God (1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15).

How would you talk to an unchurched / unbelieving person on "why obey"?

I wouldn't necessarily try to tell them why they should obey; I wouldn't expect unbelievers to obey God unless they become believers. I would try to talk about sin and their need for a Savior. If they bring up obedience and why do you do this or that, why do you obey the Bible, etc., I would point them to what Jesus did on Calvary to help them understand why we respond with love and obedience.

[MattY]

Yet Jesus never told people to accept Protestant salvation in order to escape hell.

He did tell people to stop sinning so that they wouldn't go to hell.

Not sure who you're responding to...maybe Paul? Yes, Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." Etc. - but if our salvation depends on us never sinning, we are all still lost, because we sin every day. We don't merit or deserve salvation, either before or after becoming born again.

As for "Protestant salvation", just trying to figure out what sort of "Protestant salvation" you're referring to. I think you're reacting to popular-level easy believism and feel-good "theology" that doesn't preach about sin or discipleship but is more like self-help therapy, or that says all you have to do is pray a prayer and everything will be great. I just don't think broad-brushing is fair or useful.

We need to repent of our sins. Unrepentant sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. Perhaps that's what you meant. I don't suppose you object to this "Protestant salvation" - which is not Protestant or Anabaptist, but simply salvation (quote from a Protestant, D.L. Moody):
http://www.biblestudytools.com/classics ... tance.html

You will see to-night that I have for my text a command, and not only a command, but it is a command to all in this hall to-night. And now he commandeth all men everywhere to repent. Not only here in New York, but everywhere. I have had some fault found with me since I have been in New York, because I have not preached repentance. I want to tell you one thing; if you do not repent, you will never see the kingdom of God. There will be no unrepentant sinners in heaven. An unrepentant sinner to God cannot love him. If a man does not repent, there is no hope for him in the world to come...
...
But there are a good many that are not sincere. They do not really repent in their hearts. God can read the heart, and knows whether repentance is in the heart or in the head. It is with the heart that man must believe; for I may have sin in my heart, and make professions with my lips. I may believe in him with my head, but not in my heart. It is the heart God wants...
...
God is very merciful; he is full of love, and he can pardon me. Well, you can go on in that faith, in that delusion if you like; but God says that if you don't repent you must die. God is true; he does not say that which is false. You can make light of it, young man or young woman, if you wish to, but the time is coming when, if you have not repented, there will not be much hope for you. You most be faithful; you must banish everything that is not good and holv.

Here are some things Jesus said about faith or believing (or in the quotes from John 3, it's probably what John wrote, as a commentary on Jesus' teachings - not that it matters, since it is all inspired by God):

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Quoting these verses, or saying something similar, about how we are saved or how we "don't go to hell", shouldn't be called "Protestant salvation" in a disparaging fashion. Right?

Of course, believing and having faith does not refer to a dead faith or simple mental assent, but to an active, living, and obedient faith. Nor does it mean that you have unconditional eternal security - not to restart that argument, I noticed it in another thread with Paul and others.

[Josh]

But Jesus never described "repentance" as mere mental assent or signing up for a new belief system; his model was "Go and sin no more." And I note that he told people to do this before his work on the cross was even started.

His message generally was, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish." Now he did say that all who believed on him would experience freedom and living water and be delivered from their sins, but his model seems to be more "Those who believe in me will have the power to stop sinning", as opposed to merely "Those who believe me won't have to have any consequences for their ongoing sin."

The Protestant view, which Luther assembled, is that Jesus took all the consequences of sin and thus there are no more consequences for us as long as have the right mental assent to the right belief system. That is, unfortunately, the core of Evangelicalism today, and leads to such nonsense ideas as that Old Order Amish are not "saved".

[Paul]

Yet Jesus never told people to accept Protestant salvation in order to escape hell.

He did tell people to stop sinning so that they wouldn't go to hell.

What is "Protestant salvation" and how do people stop sinning exactly? You try to drive a wedge where there really is none.

Does our Lord here stress that the people should "stop sinning" for eternal life, or that they believe in Him?

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Entering the Kingdom of God, by stopping sinning or by being born again?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And how is one born again, according to Jesus:


John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To sum it up, and this is only a small portion of Johns Gospel: to flee the wrath to come by faith in Jesus Christ is not a "Protestant salvation" but this is the salvation that our Lord Jesus Christ taught. Ofcourse we should stop sinning, but we won't stop sinning in our old nature, a fig tree won't spontaneously produce apples no matter how hard it tries. In order to produce apples, we need to become an apple tree, we need to receive a new nature. And the way we can receive that is not by trying to paint our figs red and reshape them to look like apples, or by stopping bearing figs, but we receive that new nature if we come to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith, He is the salvation for the protestants aswell as for the anabaptists, catholics, presbyterians, messianics etc. I hope you can agree with that?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[Josh]

One of the hallmarks of "Protestant Salvation" is focusing exclusively on the book of John, ignoring the testimony of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I think all 4 gospels are needed.

They all, taken together, stress these things:

- Jesus offers to save us from sin

- Saving includes here right now and in the future

- It's a free gift - all we have to do is believe and obey.

- We are free to choose not to obey, but then we will not be one of his followers

- The sign of belief is obedience

[Paul]

One of the hallmarks of "Protestant Salvation" is focusing exclusively on the book of John, ignoring the testimony of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I think all 4 gospels are needed.

They all, taken together, stress these things:

- Jesus offers to save us from sin

- Saving includes here right now and in the future

- It's a free gift - all we have to do is believe and obey.

- We are free to choose not to obey, but then we will not be one of his followers

- The sign of belief is obedience

So you'd rather cut out the Gospel of John? Isn't the entire Bible Divine truth, inspired by the Holy Spirit? Just because I quoted from the Gospel of John does not mean that I ignore other Gospels or that the other Gospels say nothing about salvation by grace through faith. It might not be as obvious as Johns Gospel, which John clearly wrote with the intention that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, and believing receive eternal life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

But also in the other Gospels it's still clearly there, and we ought to always compare Scripture with Scripture.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Or the faith relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is implied as necessary, as in the following:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ofcourse our Lord knew who they were, He is omniscient, but this is talking about a personal knowing. And below our Lord is also commending the centurions faith in an amazing way, and then adding the prophecy of salvation to the Gentiles to it.

Matthew 8:10-11 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.


Here is judgment pronounced on the unrepentant and unbelieving hearts of the pharisees, essentially the same thing that John says that Gods wrath abides on whosoever does not believe.

Matthew 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

On this occasion Jesus called Peter blessed for his confession of faith, because the Father had revealed it. Did Peter stop sinning entirely? Or did Jesus say, yes yes nice confession Peter but it's time for you to stop sinning if you want to enter heaven. Obviously not, and that's because the Gospel is not just "stop sinning" and that's it, thank God our Lord is also gracious towards our weaknesses, and Peter was restored after his fall.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

But again, it's not like Matthews, Marks and Lukes Gospel and Johns Gospel are rivals of each other, all are divinely true and should be taken as such, not played out against each other. I think it's sad the way you are stroking with a very broad brush to put down "Protestants", and being so divisive over basic Biblical truths that I'd think that we can all agree on.

[Josh]

I'm more than willing to paint Protestantism with a pretty broad brush, considering these are the actions of the founders of it:

1. King Henry the VIII started the Anglican church so that he can get yet another divorce from one of his many wives and marry a new wife. The Catholic Church refused to grant him a divorce and remarriage, so he split off and made his own church. This is one of the major branches of Protestantism.

2. Luther separated from the Catholic church, and then went and established his own state church, often quite violently so. He was more than willing to persecute and kill anyone who disagreed with him.

3. Calvin likewise established a new state church, and killed anyone who disagreed with him.

For reference, here is the generally agreed academic distinction between these branches:



The Anabaptists represented by people like Blaurock, Simons, Grebels, and Philips had a very different approach than identifying specific belief systems or creeds; mental assent to a belief system was not the focus nearly as much as simply reading what Jesus and the apostles said, and then just going and doing it, starting with adult baptism.