Why Obey ?

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Josh
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by Josh »

Ultimately, if moderate conservative Mennonite settings, Beachy, etc. are transitioning to evangelical theology and practice....

why not just become part of an existing evangelical church? And why invite anyone to your own church when they would be a lot more comfortable and fit in culturally in a mainstream evangelical setting?

This is a question I'd really like to hear answered from a perspective like buckeymatt's. It's a lot easier for me to go to New Pointe or Faith Family and make friends there, and I won't be left out of half the conversations because I don't speak Dutch.

What makes conservative Mennonites and Beachys actually different? Are these differences worth preserving?
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cmbl
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by cmbl »

I understand that the discussion has moved to a different (but related!) topic, but to the original topic...

When I read the Gospels, I observe Jesus to speak from a viewpoint that few would obey him, rather than a viewpoint that many would obey but only few for the "right reasons". Here I'm thinking of the conclusion to the Sermon on the Mount, the conclusion to the Sermon on the Plain, Jesus' first words to new believers in John 8, etc.

I think that in the CA setting, Revivalism reacted to people obeying Old Order practices* without loving Jesus by instilling a fear of people obeying Jesus without loving Jesus. I do not find Jesus to share that fear. In fact, he said quite the opposite: "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me."

Do we believe him?

*(I'm thinking about why Lancaster accepted revivalist protracted meetings in the early 1900s, and I don't mean to disparage Old Order practice in general.)
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cmbl
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by cmbl »

Josh wrote:Ultimately, if moderate conservative Mennonite settings, Beachy, etc. are transitioning to evangelical theology and practice....

why not just become part of an existing evangelical church? And why invite anyone to your own church when they would be a lot more comfortable and fit in culturally in a mainstream evangelical setting?
Well, one NMB's dim view is that the moderate conservative mennonites are a lot more comfortable and fit in culturally in a conservative mennonite setting. The culture can be couched in fundamentalism for about a generation.
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MattY
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by MattY »

Josh wrote:Ultimately, if moderate conservative Mennonite settings, Beachy, etc. are transitioning to evangelical theology and practice....

why not just become part of an existing evangelical church? And why invite anyone to your own church when they would be a lot more comfortable and fit in culturally in a mainstream evangelical setting?

This is a question I'd really like to hear answered from a perspective like buckeymatt's. It's a lot easier for me to go to New Pointe or Faith Family and make friends there, and I won't be left out of half the conversations because I don't speak Dutch.

What makes conservative Mennonites and Beachys actually different? Are these differences worth preserving?
Good questions.

How about these differences & reasons to be conservative Anabaptist (not all are exclusive to Anabaptists, but they are things I appreciate)

1) Nonresistance
2) Believer's baptism - and not generally children under 10 or whatever
3) Modesty and noncomformity - while I don't always agree with how it's taught or with the requirements of the standards that are put in place, this is a plus over having no teaching or discipleship in the area of modesty and nonconformity at all.
4) Head covering
5) Emphasis on sanctification
6) Emphasis on community and brotherly love, where the church is a family, and your friends are from church, and the church and related activities with people from church are a big part of your life - rather than just going to church on Sundays and knowing only a few of the people
7) Belief in church membership and discipline - excommunication for those who fall away, etc.
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ohio jones
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by ohio jones »

buckeyematt2 wrote:We are saved by the grace of Christ through faith that works. Agree? A lot of evangelicals would agree, but often they forget to emphasis the last part, "that works" (i.e. sanctification). One of the Anabaptist distinctives is an emphasis on sanctification.
Could you say more about how you view the relationship between works and sanctification? I don't generally think of them as being synonymous.
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Josh
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by Josh »

buckeyematt2 wrote:
What makes conservative Mennonites and Beachys actually different? Are these differences worth preserving?
Good questions.

How about these differences & reasons to be conservative Anabaptist (not all are exclusive to Anabaptists, but they are things I appreciate)

1) Nonresistance
2) Believer's baptism - and not generally children under 10 or whatever
3) Modesty and noncomformity - while I don't always agree with how it's taught or with the requirements of the standards that are put in place, this is a plus over having no teaching or discipleship in the area of modesty and nonconformity at all.
4) Head covering
5) Emphasis on sanctification
6) Emphasis on community and brotherly love, where the church is a family, and your friends are from church, and the church and related activities with people from church are a big part of your life - rather than just going to church on Sundays and knowing only a few of the people
7) Belief in church membership and discipline - excommunication for those who fall away, etc.
Outside of #1 and #4 and partially #3, these are all things that the other churches listed do or at least say they do. New Pointe, Faith Family, or lots of smaller churches all promote adult baptism. All of them would stick to standard evangelical theology talking about sanctification, living a God-honouring life, etc. They try to build community, especially forming small groups. And they do all promote the idea of church membership and discipline - the difference between them and Anabaptists.

They would also say they support biblical modesty. They wouldn't agree at all on "nonconformity", saying it is legalism to teach that you must part your hair in the middle, wear a kapp with strings, and so on. But they would say yes we should not be vain, yes we should be modest. They would just disagree about the particulars of what that means.

They would say they believe in #4, but believe the "head" means a figurative head, and that the whole passage is an allegory / figurative thing, although if someone is personally convicted to wear a head covering that would be OK too.

As far as #1 goes, well, I'm not even sure how much difference exists there between the conservative Mennonite churches where I live and a typical evangelical fellowship. People freely carry guns and have concealed carry permits. People freely put bumper stickers for presidential campaigns on their cars and promote certain candidates. Many church members own guns, sometimes dozens of them, including small, subcompact pistols intended for self defence and concealed carry. I'm not quite sure what "nonresistance" means for us anymore.

I'm not sure what modesty and nonconformity mean - I don't think it makes much sense to wear a cape dress and a kapp and a plain coat on Sundays, but wear the same kind of attire the world does during the week. And unfortunately, that's the trend that I either see happening in my area, or it has already happened and the process has been completed. The CMC affiliates where I live have completely transitioned in the area of #1, #3, and #4. I don't see why we think we will be immune when our belief and practice is identical to where those affiliates were 20 years ago.
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote: As far as #1 goes, well, I'm not even sure how much difference exists there between the conservative Mennonite churches where I live and a typical evangelical fellowship. People freely carry guns and have concealed carry permits. People freely put bumper stickers for presidential campaigns on their cars and promote certain candidates. Many church members own guns, sometimes dozens of them, including small, subcompact pistols intended for self defence and concealed carry. I'm not quite sure what "nonresistance" means for us anymore.
I have a hard time thinking this is widespread. Perhaps this may be one of the difference in Ultra/Intermediate/Moderate & Fundamental conservative?

I don't see this thinking at all in the people that go to the churches I know of.
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Josh
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:
Josh wrote: As far as #1 goes, well, I'm not even sure how much difference exists there between the conservative Mennonite churches where I live and a typical evangelical fellowship. People freely carry guns and have concealed carry permits. People freely put bumper stickers for presidential campaigns on their cars and promote certain candidates. Many church members own guns, sometimes dozens of them, including small, subcompact pistols intended for self defence and concealed carry. I'm not quite sure what "nonresistance" means for us anymore.
I have a hard time thinking this is widespread. Perhaps this may be one of the difference in Ultra/Intermediate/Moderate & Fundamental conservative?

I don't see this thinking at all in the people that go to the churches I know of.
This is a very big difference between intermediate-conservative churches and the liberal end of moderate-conservatives or the liberal end of fundamental-conservatives.

I think it also makes a difference when virtually everyone is of Amish background - as far as I know, your fellowship is mostly not composed of Amish background. And also keep in mind that my perspective as NMB and as a younger person is quite different. For reasons I don't fully understand, the young people do not make an effort at all to hide from me when they don't obey church rules. Sometimes they seem to think I'd even be an ally or be OK with that kind of thing, or want to disobey church rules myself.
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by Sudsy »

cmbl wrote:I understand that the discussion has moved to a different (but related!) topic, but to the original topic...

When I read the Gospels, I observe Jesus to speak from a viewpoint that few would obey him, rather than a viewpoint that many would obey but only few for the "right reasons". Here I'm thinking of the conclusion to the Sermon on the Mount, the conclusion to the Sermon on the Plain, Jesus' first words to new believers in John 8, etc.

I think that in the CA setting, Revivalism reacted to people obeying Old Order practices* without loving Jesus by instilling a fear of people obeying Jesus without loving Jesus. I do not find Jesus to share that fear. In fact, he said quite the opposite: "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me."

Do we believe him?

*(I'm thinking about why Lancaster accepted revivalist protracted meetings in the early 1900s, and I don't mean to disparage Old Order practice in general.)
First, thankyou for attempting to get back to 'Why Obey ?'

Regarding the verse you used - I do not think this verse supports fear as a motivator to obey. What this verse says to me is that we can sing praises and do all kinds of other churchy things but what God looks for regarding whether we love Him or not, is our obedience. If I view God as a loving Father who wants the best for me and He gives me a guide to follow to have that best, then, out of love for Him, I will try to keep His commandments. One can view God as a loving Father or a demanding Father. I chose to regard Him as a loving Father as God is love.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Why Obey ?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

“For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:18‬, emphasis mine
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