Is there a relationship between eschatology and how one experiences society

[Nomad]

Who exactly are “Israel as a people”?

I would call them Jews today. Just like there are Native Americans, Chinese, Haitians...etc. They are the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as they were defined as in the Bible quite a few times. They're the people group God brought out of Egypt and they are the only people group to ever live who were held to the standards of Mosaic Law given on Sinai.

If your implying that its impossible to detect a Jew based on their race due to their blood getting "watered-down" through the year's, I simply have faith that God knows how to define them just like He can define His church as a connected body including all Gentiles and all Jews who have faith in Him. Nor do I feel it appropriate for me as a Gentile to tell a Jew (or any race for that matter) they aren't a Jew because I think there linage is "tainted". But maybe I'm mistaken in what you are trying to say. If so, I apologize.

[Marylander]

We love to put labels and pretend we have everyone figured out.

Labels keep things tidy and plain people love tidiness. But using terms such as intermediate conservative, ultra conservative, etc make my eyes glaze over.

[Neto]

Who exactly are “Israel as a people”?

I used that phrase to distinguish between the modern state of Israel as a political entity and the people of Jewish heritage themselves, especially practicing Jews. I acknowledge that ethnicity within the secular world is more difficult to define than it is for an isolated tribal group, where there is a shared world view, language, and cultural mores, and where there are familial and/or social relationships between all members of the group.

[Josh]

Who exactly are “Israel as a people”?

I would call them Jews today. Just like there are Native Americans, Chinese, Haitians...etc. They are the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as they were defined as in the Bible quite a few times. They're the people group God brought out of Egypt and they are the only people group to ever live who were held to the standards of Mosaic Law given on Sinai.

If your implying that its impossible to detect a Jew based on their race due to their blood getting "watered-down" through the year's, I simply have faith that God knows how to define them just like He can define His church as a connected body including all Gentiles and all Jews who have faith in Him. Nor do I feel it appropriate for me as a Gentile to tell a Jew (or any race for that matter) they aren't a Jew because I think there linage is "tainted". But maybe I'm mistaken in what you are trying to say. If so, I apologize.

I don’t see where the New Testament defines a group of people, whose modern identity is essentially rejecting Christ and the New Testament, as being “Israel as a people” or really being a special people group at all. They are simply heathers who need to “repent and obey the gospel”, no different than any other people group.

Likewise, in the NT Jesus warned the Jews of his day that God no longer cared about or respected special lineage or descent from Abraham. In short, God was now opening himself up to all people, and no longer gave special treatment to certain ethnic groups.

Thus I would see a person who practices Judaism no different than a practicing Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, etc.

Likewise I would see a person of some sort of Jewish ethnicity or ancestry as no different than a Banawha person or an Irishman or a Turk. Special promises to “Israel as a people” were fulfilled by Jesus, and then God extended that promise to the whole world.

I simply have faith that God knows how to define them just like He can define His church as a connected body including all Gentiles and all Jews who have faith in Him.

Much of the text of the NT is reminding its audience that in Christ, there are no longer meaningful spiritual distinctions between Jew nor Greek.

In short, “Israel as a people” has about as much relevance to biblical prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled as “Scotland as a people” or “Palestinians as a people”.

[Nomad]

Who exactly are “Israel as a people”?

I would call them Jews today. Just like there are Native Americans, Chinese, Haitians...etc. They are the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as they were defined as in the Bible quite a few times. They're the people group God brought out of Egypt and they are the only people group to ever live who were held to the standards of Mosaic Law given on Sinai.

If your implying that its impossible to detect a Jew based on their race due to their blood getting "watered-down" through the year's, I simply have faith that God knows how to define them just like He can define His church as a connected body including all Gentiles and all Jews who have faith in Him. Nor do I feel it appropriate for me as a Gentile to tell a Jew (or any race for that matter) they aren't a Jew because I think there linage is "tainted". But maybe I'm mistaken in what you are trying to say. If so, I apologize.

I don’t see where the New Testament defines a group of people, whose modern identity is essentially rejecting Christ and the New Testament, as being “Israel as a people” or really being a special people group at all. They are simply heathers who need to “repent and obey the gospel”, no different than any other people group.

Likewise, in the NT Jesus warned the Jews of his day that God no longer cared about or respected special lineage or descent from Abraham. In short, God was now opening himself up to all people, and no longer gave special treatment to certain ethnic groups.

Thus I would see a person who practices Judaism no different than a practicing Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, etc.

Likewise I would see a person of some sort of Jewish ethnicity or ancestry as no different than a Banawha person or an Irishman or a Turk. Special promises to “Israel as a people” were fulfilled by Jesus, and then God extended that promise to the whole world.

I simply have faith that God knows how to define them just like He can define His church as a connected body including all Gentiles and all Jews who have faith in Him.

Much of the text of the NT is reminding its audience that in Christ, there are no longer meaningful spiritual distinctions between Jew nor Greek.

In short, “Israel as a people” has about as much relevance to biblical prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled as “Scotland as a people” or “Palestinians as a people”.

I agree with you somewhat, Israel isn't superior over other peoples. Nor do they have a different mechanism for salvation. In fact it says He didn't choose Israel because of their greatness in Deuteronomy 7:7, 9:4-5. If everything in the Bible was about Israel then I wouldn't be a Christian. And though I see promises to Israel in the Covenant God made with Abraham, I don't see the Covenant as strictly Jewish either since there are promises to the "nations" (plural) as well.

My concern is if I read the Bible and I see very obvious detailed promises of reconciliation to the nation Israel in light of God's previous discipline of them (Ro 11:11-15) and I decide that because of their sinfulness it doesn't seem right that these promises exist in spite of the fact God DID record that it would happen in His Word. If I then "reinterpret" the scriptures in a way that reads Israel out of their promises according to my own presupposed biase: In my mind that would be imposing my own thinking into the scriptures rather than letting the scriptures themselves tell me what God is saying. If all the promises to them as a nation are evaporated in the "oneness" of Christ, hindu style, doesn't it now make a large portion of the Old Testament that speaks of their specific blessings irrelevant? Why can't we say they are as true now as they were then? I know the Law was fulfilled by Christ but was ALL the Old Testament New Covenant promises to Israel as well? There may be new revelation given to previous passages in the New Testament but it doesn't mean that all the previous passages of the Old Testament are now "swallowed up" and made meaningless in the type of Christ. They should harmonize and "add-to" the previous revelation given instead.

That said, I do think there is a danger of reading to much into Israel as well and making all of it about Israel. That would be the danger on the otherside of the coin where we cut everything out but Israel. However to say God doesn't choose specific peoples for specific purposes (like He has chosen Israel) is wrong in my mind. He did separate Abraham from all other people, He chose Isaac over Ishmael, He chose Jacob not Esau, and He chose Israel from the all other nations. Also He chooses deacons, bishops, elders, men, women, etc for different roles. Its not unheard of for God to choose people or people's for specific functions

[Josh]

Jesus is the greatest thing that could ever be sent to any people, and the promises to specific nations were fulfilled when Jesus came.

I don't see any OT prophecy about "Israel" that wasn't fulfilled when Jesus came (or when the events like 70 A.D. happened, which was the end of any kind of practice of Judaism involving the temple, which has never been restored since).

It makes zero sense to me that God would allow what is now a false religion to be restored and worship in the temple in Jerusalem. He already sent Jesus and now declares that each of us who follows him is a temple of the Holy Spirit. God would not make "promises" to a people that he would enable them to practice a false religion that makes them hellbound.

[Nomad]

Jesus is the greatest thing that could ever be sent to any people, and the promises to specific nations were fulfilled when Jesus came.

I don't see any OT prophecy about "Israel" that wasn't fulfilled when Jesus came (or when the events like 70 A.D. happened, which was the end of any kind of practice of Judaism involving the temple, which has never been restored since).

It makes zero sense to me that God would allow what is now a false religion to be restored and worship in the temple in Jerusalem. He already sent Jesus and now declares that each of us who follows him is a temple of the Holy Spirit. God would not make "promises" to a people that he would enable them to practice a false religion that makes them hellbound.

I agree. if a Jew rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior then they will not be saved.

I guess I see it differently than you when I read the OT prophets.

[Josh]

The distinction I see is that in the NT, God now approaches us as individuals instead of as nations. Jesus came to save the individual.

Membership in a nation won’t save anyone, nor does God make promises to nations of people. He instead seeks a personal relationship with every one of his children.

In the pagan way of thinking, nation, tribe, language, country, the state, and government are all overarching and all powerful. Religion is defined in terms of ancestry: you follow the beliefs of your ancestors.

In Jesus’ new kingdom, we are all part of his “tribe”. He teaches us a new way to speak. Our family is our “brethren” of other believers. Nation is replaced with the universal church. The state is no longer all powerful to us; we rather fear our King.