Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

General Christian Theology
User avatar
JimFoxvog
Posts: 2891
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:56 pm
Location: Northern Illinois
Affiliation: MCUSA

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by JimFoxvog »

“What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

[bible]John 6,28-29[/bible]
0 x
Adam
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: Papua New Guinea
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

JimFoxvog wrote:“What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

[bible]John 6,28-29[/bible]
I think 'believe' is an inadequate translation of πιστεύω because, to the average English speaker, it comes across as mental assent. For example, Do you believe in Santa Claus? Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins? In other words, most people hear the phrase 'do you believe' and interpret it as 'do you think it is true that'. However, the word πιστεύω means much, much more when it is used in the context of 'having faith' in someone. It means completely entrusting yourself to a person, which includes obedience. Having faith and being obedient are two sides of the same coin. As Paul was saying in the prior post, having genuine faith and bearing fruit go hand-in-hand.
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4575
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Neto »

Adam wrote:.... But ultimately we will be judged by our fruit and not our confession of faith. ....
This one sentence in your original post makes me uneasy. I'm not certain what you mean by 'judged'. I agree that we will not be 'allowed into heaven' on the basis of our response to any theological question. The question posed, if any, will be a question posed not to us, but to Jesus the Christ of God: "Do you know him/her?"
Some in our congregation say that salvation is by faith, but then you stay saved by works. If that is true, we are all doomed to a life of uncertainty, wondering if the works we have done are enough. Salvation is the work of the Savior, not ours. It is not a one time deal, we are being saved. The Scripture tells us that Abraham believed God, and it was considered as righteousness (Rom 4:3). Belief is a righteous act, but I'm not sure that this 'righteous act' is the cause of salvation. By faith we accept the gift of salvation. Even faith is not the real cause of salvation - that is Christ alone. James quotes the same OT passage (Gen 15:6), and then says that "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone". Jesus told people "If you love me, obey my commandments". The response (obedience = good works) is necessary for salvation, but I don't see Scriptural support for claiming it as the cause of the salvation. I think it is easy to equate this "being declared righteous" or "being justified" as the "work" that results in our salvation. I think that it plays a necessary role in our salvation, but maintain that "salvation is of Yahweh", not of ourselves - not of our works of righteousness, and not of our faith alone. The relationship between faith & works is a complicated matter, one that I would be reluctant to attempt to describe in a systematic theology sort of way. I hope that I have not gone too far down that road here already.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Neto
Posts: 4575
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Neto »

Adam wrote:
JimFoxvog wrote:“What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

[bible]John 6,28-29[/bible]
I think 'believe' is an inadequate translation of πιστεύω because, to the average English speaker, it comes across as mental assent. For example, Do you believe in Santa Claus? Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins? In other words, most people hear the phrase 'do you believe' and interpret it as 'do you think it is true that'. However, the word πιστεύω means much, much more when it is used in the context of 'having faith' in someone. It means completely entrusting yourself to a person, which includes obedience. Having faith and being obedient are two sides of the same coin. As Paul was saying in the prior post, having genuine faith and bearing fruit go hand-in-hand.
I wasn't alerted that another post had been made while I was writing my response (above). I agree with this, and would just add, along these same lines, that in the NT, the opposite of 'belief' is not 'unbelief', but 'disobedience'.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Adam
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: Papua New Guinea
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Paul wrote:So I think the warnings/judgments are for those who did not truly come to Jesus Christ, did not repent of their sin and were not born again, did not receive a new heart and do not bear fruit accordingly.
Thanks Paul for sharing your thoughts. It appears that you are coming from a OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) perspective. Is that correct?

I agree with you that true faith results in bearing fruit. However, I do not see in the texts I quoted in the OP anything that suggests that those warnings are only for 'those who did not truly come to Jesus Christ'. Rather they seem to be quite general, including all humans. As a former adherent to mainstream Evangelical theology, I understand the desire to make the qualification you have made in order to fit those text into your theological system, but I see no basis in the texts for doing so.

The New Testament talks about past, present, and future aspects of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to the past aspect, when God delivered us from the kingdom of darkness. But the future aspect is when we stand before the Lord on Judgment Day, and I am not aware of any Scriptures that say that the criteria of judgment on that day will be anything other than our works. I think one of the major shortcomings of mainstream Evangelical theology is not adequately accounting for the differences between the past, present, and future aspects of salvation. Rather Evangelicals often roll the past, present, and future aspects of salvation all into one moment in time, usually the moment when a person says the sinner's prayer. Once that prayer is prayed, the past, present, and future is sealed, but I don't think that conforms with a straightforward reading of the New Testament. Rather, it seems to require some theological gymnastics. Have you read David Bercot's book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?
0 x
Adam
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: Papua New Guinea
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Neto wrote:
Adam wrote:.... But ultimately we will be judged by our fruit and not our confession of faith. ....
This one sentence in your original post makes me uneasy. I'm not certain what you mean by 'judged'.
I mean when we stand before God, he is not going to be concerned about whether we have the right theological answer. He is going to be concerned about whether what we say we believe is evident by our works. The criteria for judging us on the last day will not be what we have confessed to believe, but the fruit that we have born in our lives. That fruit is born as a result of us having an obedient love/faith relationship with Jesus Christ. At least that sure seems to be the picture painted by a straightforward reading of the New Testament.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14439
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Bootstrap »

Adam wrote:I think 'believe' is an inadequate translation of πιστεύω because, to the average English speaker, it comes across as mental assent. For example, Do you believe in Santa Claus? Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins? In other words, most people hear the phrase 'do you believe' and interpret it as 'do you think it is true that'. However, the word πιστεύω means much, much more when it is used in the context of 'having faith' in someone. It means completely entrusting yourself to a person, which includes obedience. Having faith and being obedient are two sides of the same coin. As Paul was saying in the prior post, having genuine faith and bearing fruit go hand-in-hand.
Absolutely. And entrusting has a lot to do with trusting - having faith and trusting God are also two sides of the same coin. If you really trust God, of course you obey. There are people who obey without trusting, fearful of God or the judgement of others but not trusting in God's goodness and love. There are people who obey some set of religious practices rather than obeying God, following the letter of the law instead of the things that Jesus said are at the heart of the law. Neither of these things are true obedience out of faith.

Incidentally, I think Adam is putting his finger on a core problem with a lot of Christian theology, the notion that faith is mostly about believing theological truths. The Four Spiritual Laws, the Nicene and Apostolic Creeds and the various catechisms largely present Christianity as sets of theological propositions that true Christians accept. While it's true that these are things that Christians believe, we should also remember this:
You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe--and they shudder.
In English translations, the kind of belief Adam is talking about is often translated "believe in". The kind of belief in theological propositions is often translated "believe that". The "believe in" kind of faith is the kind that is emphasized in Scripture, the kind that matters most.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Sudsy »

Adam, brings back some memories when you mentioned the course Evangelism Explosion. I have used this in door-to-door evangelism and imo, it had a great introduction to getting people to state where their faith was placed.

I believe a living faith is one that believes and puts it's trust in God (for us NC people in Jesus specifically) and this faith is evident by a work(s) that reflect that this trust in God is real (Abraham, Noah, etc, were also saved by this kind of faith). The thief on the cross made a confession of faith and this was his work of faith that to Jesus was adequate enough to be saved. And the same for folks that have death bed genuine confessions of their faith. God knows whether or not they believed with their heart or just went through a religious act.

I believe the on-going part of 'remaining saved' is about not abandoning our heart belief, apostacy. Some believe if you are trully reborn you will not, others (most, not all, Anabaptists) believe you can apostasize. But belief itself is a work of co-operation between God and man, otherwise to repent would be unnecessary.

Regarding obedience, who here is perfectly obedient ? And therefore, at what point are you 'obedient enough' to 'remain saved' ? I find there are definite areas within Anabaptism where the practise of obedience is completely ignored whereas in other areas it sounds close to or is a requirement of salvation. And I expect to see many women in heaven who did not wear a head covering and those who did perhaps their covering is not really an adequate covering.

I think a changed heart will cause us to desire to live godly lives but as has been pointed out, some will appear to live godly yet they had no reborn spirit reconciled to God in a personal relationship. Their obedience driver was not a love for Christ but perhaps a love for self recognition. If there is this undefined level of obedience required to be saved, then there is no assurance of salvation which the NT says we can have. We can know now that we are saved, being saved and will be saved.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Paul
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:33 pm
Affiliation:

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Paul »

Adam wrote: Thanks Paul for sharing your thoughts. It appears that you are coming from a OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) perspective. Is that correct?
You're most welcome, I think the Bible itself teaches "OSAS", even though I am unfamiliar with the term. Just think about what it means to be born again, to have received the Holy Spirit, to have put one's trust in Jesus Christ. To be born again, which is symbolized by baptism, means to have died and risen again with Christ. Spiritually speaking we are as if we have literally died a physical death and rose again, because we were made one with Christ, which is why the law has no dominion over us.

Romans 7:1-6 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


So we are free from law because we were made one with Christ, eternally married to Him, so that we should bring forth fruit unto God. But how can that ever be undone? How can Christ ever lose one sheep for which He gave His life? Paul is writing in the present tense here in Colossians, we have been quickened, our trespasses have been forgiven, He has nailed it to His cross and triumphed over all principalities and powers.

Colossians 2:12-15 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Remember that Jesus Christ came to save us, His very goal was to give us eternal life and He paid the full price for our sins so we could be saved. These are Christs own words, and perhaps it would've been enough to only post these:

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Imo this is not theological gymnastics, I am not that good at theological gymnastics or gymnastics in general for that matter, but I have experienced the tremendous grace of God in my life which made me a whole new person. And with the apostle Paul I do not believe there is anything or anyone that can seperate me from Christ, which I don't reckon at all to be a free-pass to do whatever I want but as a responsibility to live for Him and bear fruit for Him, with the comfort that He will not leave me nor forsake me.

I can see how this theology of OSAS might be attractive to the unregenerate though, but no matter what kind of abuses there are of this truth (and no wonder because satan himself is always attacking the Gospel), we should avoid the other extreme of denying these truths altogether and falling into the pit of a life of uncertainty as to whether or not we are saved.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23807
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Josh »

I don't think someone who is a murderer, adulterer, and swindler, and never repents for these things, is someone who will inherit the kingdom of God, and it doesn't matter if at one point they did believe in Jesus and repent for those things and live a changed life.

It's particularly odd to think that the kingdom of heaven will exclude those who made the wrong mental assent, but include those who made the right mental assent but never actually lived like someone in the kingdom of heaven does.
0 x
Post Reply