Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:The unforgiving servant got turned over to the tormenters, who will not let him out until he pays the very last cent.

I don't think unforgiveness and resentment are things we can tolerate in our lives. We must seek Jesus' grace continuously to be healed of this sin and set free from this bondage.
Although we can give way to the flesh and not fight the good fight at times to overcome the flesh by the Spirit, these should not be a bondage because the bondage of sin was removed/broken at regeneration. We are no longer slaves to sin. With the Holy Spirit within us, sin no longer will reign in our bodies but that doesn't mean it will quit trying to reign. Yes, we need the continued grace of God, the overcoming power over sin. This is called the filling of the Holy Spirit or coming under the Spirit's influence. If we pursue this on-going filling or on-going yielding to the Spirit's control, we will not give way to the flesh and suffer from sin's on-going consequences.

Whoops, see you have a new post - I agree it is a combined work of the Spirit and our resolve to deal with sins and sometimes fleeing is the right response. Giving something up entirely may be another right response. And there may become a time in our Christian growth where we may no longer need to flee that area of sin anymore. I agree that giving the Spirit a chance to do His part in overcoming sin is important. He wants us to become like Jesus and continues to point us to Jesus. I think most of my failures was not relying enough on Him but rather on my own resolve. We need both.
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Neto
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Neto »

I confess that I was responding previously as though the topic were “Saved by Faith, Judged by Works”, instead of Saved by Grace. But I have said before that ‘Grace’ has been personified to the point that many people seem to have forgotten whose grace is being spoken of. It is God’s grace. It is really the fact that God is gracious. I am certain that Paul (the apostle) did not mean to separate Grace from God, as though God was no longer the Savior.

It seems to me that discussions about salvation among non-predestinarians often tend to turn to a focus on the person being saved; it is their faith, or, for some, their works. Jesus said that one group who thought that they had it all together will be told “Depart from me, I never knew you.” To be known by God. Why do we so easily start talking about how We know God? I’m reminded of a song by Linda Rich, where she sang “… and I’ll keep right on searching ‘till you find me…” Until You Find Me. It doesn’t matter what I think I know, or, as Adam has said, how much Doctrine I can recite. The main thing is to be known by God.

Regarding OSAS, I’m reminded of a book we went through in SS a year or so ago (by an evangelical radio preacher), about different fears we may experience. I told the teacher that the author missed one – the fear of falling away. This was the fear that Paul expressed to the Philippians (3:10-11). (I think he expresses this a bit more clearly elsewhere, but I can’t think of where it is right now.) But here he says He wants to know Christ, the power that comes through his resurrection, sharing in his sufferings, and becoming like him in his death. He apparently felt that if these things happened, then he would attain to the resurrection from the dead – life eternal. So, eternal security of the believer. I always say that the believer is eternally secure, because one who has rejected his salvation – really, rejected his SAVIOR – is no longer a believer. Calvinist have told me that I’m playing with their words, but my point is this: you cannot loose your salvation, but you can certainly reject it. I know people who were Once Saved, but not any more, because they no longer believe. (And as others have pointed out, the Scriptural idea of belief involves obedience. And, as I said before, there is a clear hint about this when you see that the opposite of ‘believe’ in the Scripture is ‘disobey’.
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Adam
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Neto wrote:you cannot loose your salvation, but you can certainly reject it.
I really like the way you have put this Neto.
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Adam
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Sudsy wrote:
Adam wrote:
Paul wrote: I think the Bible itself teaches "OSAS", even though I am unfamiliar with the term.
If you study the early church (up to the time of Constantine), you will find that the "once saved always saved" position is nowhere to be found. It was introduced later on. Anabaptists do not believe in eternal security.

What do you make of Jesus's words in Mt 6:14-15?

[bible]Matthew6,14-15[/bible]

The straightforward meaning to me is that if we don't forgive others, God will not forgive us. Or, perhaps a better way to say it would be, God will revoke his forgiveness of our sins.
So, if I am holding something against a brother who sinfully wronged me and then I commit another sin of sorts, God will not forgive me of that sin and I will lose my salvation ? Or could this mean that if I am unforgiving toward my brother on some issue and ask forgiveness of another sin, God will allow the effect of that sin to come my way ? I'm not sure this is talking about eternal salvation but rather our on-going relationship with God and dealing with our daily sinning. I Cor 11: 28-31 speaks about our relationship to one another and to Christ and how a disregard for this (that is what was going on in this text) can result in weakness, sickness and death.

I do agree that most, not all (i.e. one of our elders) don't believe in OSAS. One Anabaptist explaining this view -
http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/security.html
I see that you and Josh have already talked through this a bit. My point is that once God has forgiven us, he requires obedience on our part to forgive others likewise. But if we do not forgive others, at some point, God will revoke our forgiveness as in the parable of the unforgiving servant. So, while our initial salvation from bondage to sin, death, and the kingdom of darkness, is completely by God's grace and through nothing we have done (other than repenting and placing our faith in Jesus that is), our standing at the final judgment is contingent upon our obedience as evidenced by the fruit we bear. Those who are concerned about their eternal security should look to 1 John 2:3:

[bible]1John2,3[/bible]

I don't think this means perfect obedience with no mistakes, but I do think it means a lifestyle of obedience in which a person repents when they becomes aware of sin in their life and makes change so as not to persist in that sin. And it is only be remaining attached to the vine that we are able to do that. We cannot do it on our own power.

John 15:10 says something similar:

[bible]John15,10[/bible]
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Sudsy
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Sudsy »

Adam wrote: I see that you and Josh have already talked through this a bit. My point is that once God has forgiven us, he requires obedience on our part to forgive others likewise. But if we do not forgive others, at some point, God will revoke our forgiveness as in the parable of the unforgiving servant. So, while our initial salvation from bondage to sin, death, and the kingdom of darkness, is completely by God's grace and through nothing we have done (other than repenting and placing our faith in Jesus that is), our standing at the final judgment is contingent upon our obedience as evidenced by the fruit we bear. Those who are concerned about their eternal security should look to 1 John 2:3:

[bible]1John2,3[/bible]

I don't think this means perfect obedience with no mistakes, but I do think it means a lifestyle of obedience in which a person repents when they becomes aware of sin in their life and makes change so as not to persist in that sin. And it is only be remaining attached to the vine that we are able to do that. We cannot do it on our own power.

John 15:10 says something similar:

[bible]John15,10[/bible]
Those 2 verses, to me, mean that when we know God and why He has given us things to obey, we understand it is because He loves us and wants the best for us. We are abiding in His love when we obey and receive the benefits of obedience. Those who don't understand why God wants obedience and perhaps think following the rules just because they are rules don't know God and why He gives them.

So, if I understand what you posted above on forgiveness, if a Christian dies and still is holding some unforgiveness in their heart against someone who has harmed them, then God will send them to hell ?
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Adam
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Sudsy wrote:So, if I understand what you posted above on forgiveness, if a Christian dies and still is holding some unforgiveness in their heart against someone who has harmed them, then God will send them to hell ?
I would say that somebody who has lived a life of forgiving others in accordance with the command of Christ should expect to receive that same forgiveness from God. It goes back to the beard question. How many whiskers does it take to have a beard? I don't know. If one whisker is taken away from a person who has a beard, does it mean that the person no longer has a beard? I don't feel it is my role to announce a person's eternal destination based on a one sentence summary of that person's life. I am not qualified for that task. God is the judge, not me. How much unforgiveness do we need to hold onto in our heart before God revokes his forgiveness of us? I don't know. Only God knows that. What I know is that if I am harboring unforgiveness in my heart, I had better repent and forgive. I don't want to test the Lord and see just how much unforgiveness I can get away with and still be saved on Judgment Day.
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