Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

General Christian Theology
Hats Off
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

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It is not what we said we will do; it is what we did that has meaning.
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Adam
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Sudsy wrote:Regarding obedience, who here is perfectly obedient ? And therefore, at what point are you 'obedient enough' to 'remain saved' ? I find there are definite areas within Anabaptism where the practise of obedience is completely ignored whereas in other areas it sounds close to or is a requirement of salvation. And I expect to see many women in heaven who did not wear a head covering and those who did perhaps their covering is not really an adequate covering.
None of the texts I quoted said that perfect obedience is required. (And please do not quote Mt 5:48 as that is not talking about a standard for entering heaven but rather about the fact that we should love everyone, including our enemies.) Asking the question, how much obedience is required to be saved is like asking how many whiskers does a man need to have in order to have a beard. There is no magic number, but it is very obvious who has a beard and who doesn't.
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Adam
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Adam »

Paul wrote: I think the Bible itself teaches "OSAS", even though I am unfamiliar with the term.
If you study the early church (up to the time of Constantine), you will find that the "once saved always saved" position is nowhere to be found. It was introduced later on. Anabaptists do not believe in eternal security.

What do you make of Jesus's words in Mt 6:14-15?

[bible]Matthew6,14-15[/bible]

The straightforward meaning to me is that if we don't forgive others, God will not forgive us. Or, perhaps a better way to say it would be, God will revoke his forgiveness of our sins.
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Sudsy
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

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Adam wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Regarding obedience, who here is perfectly obedient ? And therefore, at what point are you 'obedient enough' to 'remain saved' ? I find there are definite areas within Anabaptism where the practise of obedience is completely ignored whereas in other areas it sounds close to or is a requirement of salvation. And I expect to see many women in heaven who did not wear a head covering and those who did perhaps their covering is not really an adequate covering.
None of the texts I quoted said that perfect obedience is required. (And please do not quote Mt 5:48 as that is not talking about a standard for entering heaven but rather about the fact that we should love everyone, including our enemies.) Asking the question, how much obedience is required to be saved is like asking how many whiskers does a man need to have in order to have a beard. There is no magic number, but it is very obvious who has a beard and who doesn't.
My bad communications. I didn't say that you used a text that said we require perfect obedience. The point I was trying to make is that some Anabaptists, as well as some non-Anabaptists, select certain acts of obedience as those, which if not kept, negate one from being a Christian. Some have even suggested that if we don't literally sell all and give the proceeds to the poor, we are not being a Christ follower, not actually saved. Others will narrow down their understanding of, for example, not taking up the sword, to say those who killed someone in self defense or in some war cannot be saved. I think we need to leave these areas to God's judgments.

Yes, obedience will be obvious in various ways if a true believer is following Christ. I also believe as a Christian one can backslide, shut the door on fellowship with Christ, and not be showing areas of obedience and yet Christ does not leave them but rather stands at the door and knocks awaiting the door to be opened for restored fellowship. This happened to me and I was quite aware that He was there all the time.

I believe God desires His children to be obedient because He wants the best for them. A parent wants the same for their children if they really love them. We love Him back not only because He first loved us but really believe He is asking us to be obedient for us to experience an abundant life in Him.

I do believe in OSAS if one is truly born again. I don't believe in being born again and again and again. I think there are some supporting scriptures to argue for and against OSAS and imo, more for supporting OSAS as Paul pointed out. The big issue in my mind is whether or not one is actually born again or not and I believe some can fool most, if not all of us, by their religious confession and performance. The God that began a good work in us will continue to do so through to the end.
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Adam
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

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Sudsy wrote:
Adam wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Regarding obedience, who here is perfectly obedient ? And therefore, at what point are you 'obedient enough' to 'remain saved' ? I find there are definite areas within Anabaptism where the practise of obedience is completely ignored whereas in other areas it sounds close to or is a requirement of salvation. And I expect to see many women in heaven who did not wear a head covering and those who did perhaps their covering is not really an adequate covering.
None of the texts I quoted said that perfect obedience is required. (And please do not quote Mt 5:48 as that is not talking about a standard for entering heaven but rather about the fact that we should love everyone, including our enemies.) Asking the question, how much obedience is required to be saved is like asking how many whiskers does a man need to have in order to have a beard. There is no magic number, but it is very obvious who has a beard and who doesn't.
My bad communications. I didn't say that you used a text that said we require perfect obedience. The point I was trying to make is that some Anabaptists, as well as some non-Anabaptists, select certain acts of obedience as those, which if not kept, negate one from being a Christian. Some have even suggested that if we don't literally sell all and give the proceeds to the poor, we are not being a Christ follower, not actually saved. Others will narrow down their understanding of, for example, not taking up the sword, to say those who killed someone in self defense or in some war cannot be saved. I think we need to leave these areas to God's judgments.

Yes, obedience will be obvious in various ways if a true believer is following Christ. I also believe as a Christian one can backslide, shut the door on fellowship with Christ, and not be showing areas of obedience and yet Christ does not leave them but rather stands at the door and knocks awaiting the door to be opened for restored fellowship. This happened to me and I was quite aware that He was there all the time.

I believe God desires His children to be obedient because He wants the best for them. A parent wants the same for their children if they really love them. We love Him back not only because He first loved us but really believe He is asking us to be obedient for us to experience an abundant life in Him.

I do believe in OSAS if one is truly born again. I don't believe in being born again and again and again. I think there are some supporting scriptures to argue for and against OSAS and imo, more for supporting OSAS as Paul pointed out. The big issue in my mind is whether or not one is actually born again or not and I believe some can fool most, if not all of us, by their religious confession and performance. The God that began a good work in us will continue to do so through to the end.
I think the key thing we can all agree upon is the genuine faith is evident by the fruit we bear, and there is no saving faith that does not produce fruit. Some will argue that if a person ceases bearing fruit in his/her life than that person was never saved to begin with. This is generally the OSAS camp. Others argue that a person can be saved and then turn away. This is generally the Anabaptist/No Eternal Security argument. I think the New Testament witness supports the latter. Jesus talks about a branch on the vine being cut off if it doesn't bear fruit. I think that being a branch is a picture of being in an obedient love/faith relationship with Christ, which includes the idea of being in a saving relationship. We can't be cut off if we were never on the vine to begin with.
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Josh
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

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Doesn't the Bible itself make it pretty clear that people who do certain things will not be part of the kingdom of heaven?

This is just an obvious statement... if you like to lie and swindle, and you don't want to choose to stop, then the kingdom of heaven isn't for you. You won't even want to be there. You would choose to leave the first chance you got.
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Sudsy
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Sudsy »

Adam wrote:
Paul wrote: I think the Bible itself teaches "OSAS", even though I am unfamiliar with the term.
If you study the early church (up to the time of Constantine), you will find that the "once saved always saved" position is nowhere to be found. It was introduced later on. Anabaptists do not believe in eternal security.

What do you make of Jesus's words in Mt 6:14-15?

[bible]Matthew6,14-15[/bible]

The straightforward meaning to me is that if we don't forgive others, God will not forgive us. Or, perhaps a better way to say it would be, God will revoke his forgiveness of our sins.
So, if I am holding something against a brother who sinfully wronged me and then I commit another sin of sorts, God will not forgive me of that sin and I will lose my salvation ? Or could this mean that if I am unforgiving toward my brother on some issue and ask forgiveness of another sin, God will allow the effect of that sin to come my way ? I'm not sure this is talking about eternal salvation but rather our on-going relationship with God and dealing with our daily sinning. I Cor 11: 28-31 speaks about our relationship to one another and to Christ and how a disregard for this (that is what was going on in this text) can result in weakness, sickness and death.

I do agree that most, not all (i.e. one of our elders) don't believe in OSAS. One Anabaptist explaining this view -
http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/security.html
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Josh
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

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The unforgiving servant got turned over to the tormenters, who will not let him out until he pays the very last cent.

I don't think unforgiveness and resentment are things we can tolerate in our lives. We must seek Jesus' grace continuously to be healed of this sin and set free from this bondage.
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Sudsy
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

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Josh wrote:Doesn't the Bible itself make it pretty clear that people who do certain things will not be part of the kingdom of heaven?

This is just an obvious statement... if you like to lie and swindle, and you don't want to choose to stop, then the kingdom of heaven isn't for you. You won't even want to be there. You would choose to leave the first chance you got.
Agree. I think this is referring to a continued, unrepentant sense. Some people may struggle with stretching the truth (lying) or looking lustfully upon a woman (form of adultery) or calling their brother a 'fool' (murder) but those who do those things without repenting and fighting the flesh to overcome these areas don't qualify to be Kingdom members. They don't speak of a changed heart.
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Re: Saved by Grace, Judged by Works

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:Agree. I think this is referring to a continued, unrepentant sense. Some people may struggle with stretching the truth (lying) or looking lustfully upon a woman (form of adultery) or calling their brother a 'fool' (murder) but those who do those things without repenting and fighting the flesh to overcome these areas don't qualify to be Kingdom members. They don't speak of a changed heart.
I agree, Sudsy.

At a certain point, though, if someone stumbles every week or every single day, it seems like they aren't really serious about overcoming the sin issues you just mentioned. It might take extreme measures to overcome: if you are a chronic liar, you just might have to go long periods of time without speaking.

If you keep looking at women with lust, you need to put yourself in an environment where you don't see those thing, or whatever triggers your thoughts doesn't happen.

If you keep yelling at your brother, well, again, you might have to take that vow of silence for a while.

All of these things could cause great inconvenience, but at some point we have to get serious about overcoming sin. I think the Holy Spirit blesses each believer who makes even a small attempt to try and is willing to give up something they COULD keep (like driving past a bar every day, which is certainly not sinful) if it's a temptation to them (like being an alcoholic who pulls the car over and goes into the bar).
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