Was it worth Dividing the Church??

[temporal1]

.. they wanted to correct where the Church had strayed. ..

This is the common mentality in the contemporary western world, a relative non-issue. i think it’s hard to imagine questioning the Church was catastrophic/extreme in those days. The resulting violence is now almost more than be imagined.

It’s too easy to lose history. It’s too easy to be shackled by history, too. That’s our challenge on earth. No easy fix.

[Heirbyadoption]

I have read quotes of Early Christian writers that i dicate there were Christian soldiers before Constantine- their quotes are from the 1st & 2nd century.- so difference of opinions are before Constantine. In a couple of their quotes they bring up what's been brought up here before about John the Baptist not telling the soldiers to quit serving, and.think about how Jesus marveled at the faith of the centurion. Im not advocating for or against but pointing out there was no sudden change because of Constantine, because Christian soldiers apparently existed way before him, and also there seems to be different interpretations early on.

Without wanting to get into a "quote war", lol, I'm curious if you could share a couple of those quotes, Valerie? I realize the early church had more diversity that any of us may like to admit, but I do find several quotes that suggest just the opposite of what you are referencing, and I'd love to hear a couple of the ones you have in mind if you have a few minutes. I recognize that soldiers who converted were not always able to LEAVE the military, but it seems that this was addressed differently than going INTO the military AS a Christian.

Just to share the sort of quotes I'm referring to which I come across, Hippolytus' thoughts on the matter offer one example (200AD): "A military constable must be forbidden to kill, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword shall give it up or be rejected. Anyone taking or already baptized who wants to become a soldier shall be sent away, for he has despised God.”

[barnhart]

Valerie, there are some things the Orthodox church could do to promote a unified church. First, they could stop blessing offensive waring Russia against other Orthodox people and they could stop blessing defensive war in Ukraine against other Orthodox people. This would go a long way to draw me toward them in a spirit of unity.

[Heirbyadoption]

Just to share another link, Jim Tower has an interesting brief overview from his blog a couple years ago of this subject of Christians and the military/government in the pre-Constantinian era that a few of you might find interesting.

https://practicingresurrectiontogether. ... ry/#_edn17

[Sudsy]

I begs the question what even is baptism then?

Maybe Catholics and Eastern Orthodox just don’t even view baptism close to what the Anabaptist’s and early church viewed it as?

Was it not partly a public testimony of a clear conscience with God? Don’t we see this in Scripture? - That takes Free will and personal choice. So what does baptizing an infant mean?

I will endeavor to be succinct and mind that this will not be a detailed dissertation on Catholic Rites of Christian Initiation. That would take up too much space for this forum.

You are right when speaking of our definitions being different and I believe it has as much to do with history as it does doctrine and theology.

Anabaptist World
There is one Sacrament for Christian Initiation into the fellowship and the life of a disciple: Baptism. This can take place in the teens or adult ages.

Catholic World
The RCI (Rite of Christian Initiation) is tripartite: it is not complete until all 3 sacraments are administered sequentially. It is not Baptism only.

Those 3 sacraments proceed in the following order:
1. Baptism (any age)

2. 1st Holy Communion

3. Confirmation (the earliest age for Confirmation in most USA dioceses is in the teens after they have received instruction).

Catholic teaching on Free Will is very much highlighted for teens and adults: they have the Free Will to continue instruction and to receive Holy communion and Confirmation to complete their Christian Initiation.

In Catholic World when children are baptised, the sacrament’s prayers involve a commitment by the parents and godparents to raise the child in the Faith.

Thanks Max for this explanation.

One thing that jumped out at me was when you referred to baptism from the Anabaptist World as a sacrament, My previous MB pastor corrected me once when I used this term 'sacrament' and said I should always use the word 'ordinance' when referring to water baptism. He said a sacrament is seen as a means of grace from God (a supernatural work of God) whereas an ordinance is a practice that demonstrates the participants' faith.

This got me curious as what other Anabaptists consider sacraments and not ordinances. In the MB church there were two ordinances practised, immersion baptism (a testimony that you have died to sin and come to new life in Christ) and communion (the bread and the wine remembrance).

[Heirbyadoption]

Thanks Max for this explanation.

One thing that jumped out at me was when you referred to baptism from the Anabaptist World as a sacrament, My previous MB pastor corrected me once when I used this term 'sacrament' and said I should always use the word 'ordinance' when referring to water baptism. He said a sacrament is seen as a means of grace from God (a supernatural work of God) whereas an ordinance is a practice that demonstrates the participants' faith.

This got me curious as what other Anabaptists consider sacraments and not ordinances. In the MB church there were two ordinances practised, immersion baptism (a testimony that you have died to sin and come to new life in Christ) and communion (the bread and the wine remembrance).

From a historical standpoint, the bulk of Anabaptists would have (and still do) lean strongly toward a nonSacramental view of "ordinances", embracing a more of a "memorial" view as articulated during Reformation times by Ulrich Zwingli. This was, in fact, what lay at the root of much of their theological disagreements with the Catholic Church and some of the Magisterial Reformers.

[MaxPC]

Apologies RE the sacrament/ordinance nomenclature. I was using Catholic-ese.

[Josh]

A sacrament and ordinance are indeed different, although some Anabaptists have gradually become more sacramental.

[barnhart]

Thanks Max for this explanation.

One thing that jumped out at me was when you referred to baptism from the Anabaptist World as a sacrament, My previous MB pastor corrected me once when I used this term 'sacrament' and said I should always use the word 'ordinance' when referring to water baptism. He said a sacrament is seen as a means of grace from God (a supernatural work of God) whereas an ordinance is a practice that demonstrates the participants' faith.

This got me curious as what other Anabaptists consider sacraments and not ordinances. In the MB church there were two ordinances practised, immersion baptism (a testimony that you have died to sin and come to new life in Christ) and communion (the bread and the wine remembrance).

From a historical standpoint, the bulk of Anabaptists would have (and still do) lean strongly toward a nonSacramental view of "ordinances", embracing a more of a "memorial" view as articulated during Reformation times by Ulrich Zwingli. This was, in fact, what lay at the root of much of their theological disagreements with the Catholic Church and some of the Magisterial Reformers.

I might be able to appreciate a more sacrament oriented view if the "means of grace" was defined as being in fellowship with other believers, not the emblems themselves. I don't wish to denigrate the personal aspect of relationship with God, but for me the life changing, life giving, transformation occurs when I study the scripture, pray and share/listen to the experiences of my brothers and sisters. For me participation in fellowship is a sacrament but bread, wine and water are emblematic.

[Sudsy]

Just to share another link, Jim Tower has an interesting brief overview from his blog a couple years ago of this subject of Christians and the military/government in the pre-Constantinian era that a few of you might find interesting.

https://practicingresurrectiontogether. ... ry/#_edn17

Thankyou, I did find that interesting. I don't recall the topic of pacifism having any teaching in my Pentecostal youth. I do recall going to Remembrance Day services where the Salvation Army and other Christian faith groups had a memorial service at a memorial place in the city. It was anything promoted by the Pentecostals. I looked forward as a youngster to them shooting off a canon during these services.

I remember showing up one Sunday in my early years at the MB church wearing a poppy on my lapel, around Nov 11th, and was a bit surprised that few wore them. Mostly those who wore had come from non-Mennonite backgrounds. Later in life I attended a Baptist church and most showed up wearing poppies and a part of the service was had to remember those 'who had died for our freedom' and the names of previous church members who were killed in the wars were read.

I still buy and wear a poppy to donate to what I believe is a good cause and for me, wear it as a reminder of how terrible wars are and how often they are caused by a single individual who can sway the masses of people for their cause. I guess the Hitlers and Putins and the anti-Christ will keep doing this until Jesus comes back and establishes His Kingdom in fullness over His world. YMMV.

Meanwhile we are in a spiritual war that requires spiritual warfare equipment and warring techniques. This is probably where we should be focusing our attention for this war is not against flesh and blood but is a war we are to be engaged in. It is the tearing down of strongholds in people's minds that keep them from becoming Kingdom citizens and soldiers of the cross. Satan loves to get us side-tracked and fighting with each other over whatever and he can do it in a way of convincing us that this is what 'taking a stand' is about. But are we taking territory for the Lord or not.

Well, I am feeling pretty guilty so I best get practicing more of what I'm preaching.