Soteriology and related matters

[Ken]

I just sketched this out off the top of my head. Very rough draft. Does it make any sense at all as an organizational construct? Or is it entirely off-base?

There may be better terms to express what I'm getting at.

[Josh]

Amish are not fundamentalist. There is a three way division between modernism, fundamentalism, and the “Old Order”.

Modernism (eg The Episcopal Church, some MC USA) and fundamentalism (eg Wesleyan Methodists, Conservative Anabaptists, Reformed Baptists) have much more in common with each other than they do with Old Orders.

[Ernie]

Amish are not fundamentalist. There is a three way division between modernism, fundamentalism, and the “Old Order”.

Modernism (eg The Episcopal Church, some MC USA) and fundamentalism (eg Wesleyan Methodists, Conservative Anabaptists, Reformed Baptists) have much more in common with each other than they do with Old Orders.

not a four way division? Old Order, Fundamentalism, Modernism, Post Modernism

[joshuabgood]

Many of the younger Amish I know personally, when asked about their faith , respond with very similar answers to fundamentalism. And at their singing they sing protestant songs. That could though be a reflection of the ones in Daviess and Lancaster.

[Josh]

Amish are not fundamentalist. There is a three way division between modernism, fundamentalism, and the “Old Order”.

Modernism (eg The Episcopal Church, some MC USA) and fundamentalism (eg Wesleyan Methodists, Conservative Anabaptists, Reformed Baptists) have much more in common with each other than they do with Old Orders.

not a four way division? Old Order, Fundamentalism, Modernism, Post Modernism

Modernism and postmodernism would be very similar and don’t have separate denominations. They would be, for example, MC Canada, the Episcopal church, PC USA, ECLA Lutherans, and so on.

Fundamentalists eventually formed their own denominations, after trying to stay in the same denominations for years.
So they would be (from the above list) conservative Mennonites/Lancaster Conference/Evana, ACNA Anglicans, PCA & OPC, WELS and Missouri Synod Lutherans, and so on.

Old Orders “missed out” on the fundamentalist-modernist controversies and nowadays would agree with elements of each.

[Ernie]

Modernism and postmodernism would be very similar and don’t have separate denominations. They would be, for example, MC Canada, the Episcopal church, PC USA, ECLA Lutherans, and so on.

Fundamentalists eventually formed their own denominations, after trying to stay in the same denominations for years.
So they would be (from the above list) conservative Mennonites/Lancaster Conference/Evana, ACNA Anglicans, PCA & OPC, WELS and Missouri Synod Lutherans, and so on.

Old Orders “missed out” on the fundamentalist-modernist controversies and nowadays would agree with elements of each.

Interesting perspective!

[barnhart]

I think Josh's analysis has merit, I would add there is significant overlap between fundamentalist Mennonites and Older Mennonites. In either camp there will groups that lean the other way and there are threads of cross pollination in nearly every group.

[Ken]

Old Orders “missed out” on the fundamentalist-modernist controversies and nowadays would agree with elements of each.

What modernist elements would Old Order Amish agree with?

From my point of view the Old Order groups and more modern Fundamentalist groups essentially arrived at the same point. They just took a different path to get there. Or perhaps more accurately, the Old Order groups were always there and the newer fundamentalist groups are just "Johnny come lately"

And, of course, within each group there exists a spectrum of belief. Even probably within each congregation.

[Josh]

Old Orders “missed out” on the fundamentalist-modernist controversies and nowadays would agree with elements of each.

What modernist elements would Old Order Amish agree with?

From my point of view the Old Order groups and more modern Fundamentalist groups essentially arrived at the same point. They just took a different path to get there. Or perhaps more accurately, the Old Order groups were always there and the newer fundamentalist groups are just "Johnny come lately"

And, of course, within each group there exists a spectrum of belief. Even probably within each congregation.

The most obvious example is that Old Orders predate the fundamentalist-modernist controversies at all. Back when the Old Orders decided to separate, it just them versus modernism. Modernism in the 19th century called for mission societies, protracted meetings, Sunday school, weekly services instead of biweekly, prayer meetings, temperance societies / compete abstinence from alcohol, attempts to reform broader society through holiness standards such as banning alcohol, and so forth.

Old Order groups and so called fundamentalist groups are radically different. The Old Orders do not believe that what they are doing is right because of academic, intellectual analysis of the most reasonable meaning of scripture. Spoken more plainly - the Old Orders don’t hold to a list of “fundamentals” formulated by a Presbyterian oil baron, but would rather hold to a much older list of tenets in the 16th and 17th century confessions.

In the present era, some Old Orders are influenced by fundamentalist doctrines. But by the same token, fundamentalists are very influenced by modernism.

The easiest example of a modernist position that OOs would agree with is a high degree of tolerance for people who interpret scriptures very differently and are in a different denomination. The OOs would simply say, that is not our way, but we will focus on what we believe we should do and won’t tell other groups what to do. The fundamentalist believes he knows what every Christian should believe and think.

[Joy]

I just sketched this out off the top of my head. Very rough draft. Does it make any sense at all as an organizational construct? Or is it entirely off-base?

There may be better terms to express what I'm getting at.

I certainly wouldn't include cults such as JW's and Mormons in a listing of those following the Bible.