Soteriology and related matters

[Sudsy]

It is only by His righteousness we are saved as ours is as 'filthy rags'. Our own righteousness will not save us.

The context of "filthy rags" is that of Jews who were living hypocritically. They were professing to love God but their hearts were not right.

The NT tells us that good works are a sweet smelling savor to the Lord.

My point was that scripture says it is not of works of righteousness that we have done that saves us. That does not mean goood works are not involved in our living after we are born again. As the apostle James says - 'Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.' Another scripture says faith without works is dead. We are called to do good works. That is how our lights will shine to the world. If one is born again, they will produce good works as a result of Christ living in them in the person of the Holy Spirit.

[Sudsy]

By 'grace alone' is true on God's part but that does not mean we don't play a role and that is through 'faith alone', a faith that produces good works.

The only reference in the NT referrring to "faith alone" is that we are not saved by faith alone.

You will need to give me a verse that helps me understand what you mean. Here is one that includes grace, faith, a gift and works

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The 'faith' we are saved by is a gift given by God it isn't something we can work up in ourselves and take any pride in.

[Josh]

The standard evangelical message is that works have no connection to salvation at all. This has spread to many different types of evangelicals including Pentecostals. (Oneness/Apostolic/“Jesus Only” Pentecostals have not changed like this, however.)

This is why many of us are Anabaptists now. It should be obvious that living in constant, wilful sin does not lead to salvation in the end, but we now have this type of teaching that is widespread. I am guessing it is an influence from Calvinism.

[MaxPC]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

In my experiences I would say that this can be found in some of the smaller, independent groups; only some however. They are becoming fewer by the year. Since the "incorporation" of protestantism (Baptist conferences, united methodism, etc.) I truly do not encounter this type of attitude among the evangelicals any more than other denominations.

It is my experience that all denominations have their wayward members who are not very obedient. They also have sincere disciples who try to be obedient. When I was young many decades ago, it was important to me to find a parish or group that supported my ideas of salvation. Now I am at that ancient age in which I perceive God calls me to watch over my own discipleship; read the Bible; obey; pray for others, then trust Him to sort it.

[Josh]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

In my experiences I would say that this can be found in some of the smaller, independent groups; only some however. They are becoming fewer by the year. Since the "incorporation" of protestantism (Baptist conferences, united methodism, etc.) I truly do not encounter this type of attitude among the evangelicals any more than other denominations.

It is my experience that all denominations have their wayward members who are not very obedient. They also have sincere disciples who try to be obedient. When I was young many decades ago, it was important to me to find a parish or group that supported my ideas of salvation. Now I am at that ancient age in which I perceive God calls me to watch over my own discipleship; read the Bible; obey; pray for others, then trust Him to sort it.

Hillsong and Parkside are not small, independent groups, and I have heard this type of thing at both places.

[MaxPC]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

In my experiences I would say that this can be found in some of the smaller, independent groups; only some however. They are becoming fewer by the year. Since the "incorporation" of protestantism (Baptist conferences, united methodism, etc.) I truly do not encounter this type of attitude among the evangelicals any more than other denominations.

It is my experience that all denominations have their wayward members who are not very obedient. They also have sincere disciples who try to be obedient. When I was young many decades ago, it was important to me to find a parish or group that supported my ideas of salvation. Now I am at that ancient age in which I perceive God calls me to watch over my own discipleship; read the Bible; obey; pray for others, then trust Him to sort it.

Hillsong and Parkside are not small, independent groups, and I have heard this type of thing at both places.

Compared to the gigachurches, how large are they?
Compared to the Catholic/Orthodox entities even they are small
I daresay it is a matter of one's experiences and perspective derived from those experiences.

I have heard of this type of thing coming from a small contingent of members in all denominations. Those members have had poor catechesis or limited life experiences or both.

My thoughts then go to finding a solution for better catechesis in the various groups. If I am to participate in that catechesis then I should ensure my own education is up to par. I had better make sure that I am spending daily time in the Bible, going to my fellowship of choice, and seeking wise conversation with other teachers and with God in prayer.

[Sudsy]

To cite one notable evangelical example of what Josh was saying (took out picture)

I don't follow you on this. This man had some sin in his life that finally surfaced (beware your sin will find you out) but I believe he knew all the while in his heart he was sinning. Like John Howard Yoder, an Anabaptist, who even had some scriptural justication for his sex sinning. And there are many more examples. 'If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness', right ?

So, what are you saying ?

That in some Evangelical circles there is a "virtue cycle" (to coin a term) of sin and redemption and sin and redemption, rinse and repeat that is more or less tolerated and accepted as inevitable. Being unfaithful or sinful is acceptable if you repent and then the cycle repeats.

It is true that Jesus blood goes on cleansing us from our sins but true repentance involves turning our back on sins. Scripture also says if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us. I believe God forgives the same sin again and again but not turning away from sin has it's present consequences and should be preached as well.

It is quite the opposite of Anabaptist life where living a virtuous life is the highest objective.

I best not comment on that statement.

You also see it with the conversion stories. There is a certain type of Baptist church where if you come to them with a hugely dramatic redemption story of how you were a horrible sinner with drugs and alcohol thievery and betrayal and sin and then found Jesus and were saved they are completely thrilled. The worse the sinner the better. But if you walk across the street from the Lutheran church and have been a devout Christian all your life and just feel like the Baptists are a better fit for your theology they are completely bored.

I see nothing wrong with being thrilled and amazed at the more obvious conversion experiences many of which I seen in my youth. 'Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me' was often one of their favourite hymns. The apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners. To not be as excited of a believer switching churches, to me, would be a normal human response. We need more of these 'Damascus road conversions' as they are sometimes called.

Whereas joining an Anabaptist church is exactly the opposite. The more "dramatic" your history of sin, the longer it will take to prove yourself before being fully accepted. Whereas someone walking in with a long devout history in some other similar church will be much more quicky welcomed and accepted. Especially if there are Mennonite Game type connections.

Well, not in my experience in an MB Evangelical church. Membership acceptance was on your confession of belief after membership classes and there was no proving of oneself. What you say I can see happening in churches who have rules of conduct but how often do they get new converts from no church background joining them ? We have many different Mennonite churches in our area and my guess is 90+% of these only have ethnic background Mennonites so I doubt much proving goes on except perhaps coming as believers from another type of Mennonite group.

[Sudsy]

Some may preach that it is totally a work of God and nothing on our part but I believe scripture is clear that we are to respond to His call.

Yes, there are various ways we are asked to respond to His call.

There are conditions the NT gives in order to receive the free gift. Repentance, calling on the name of the Lord, belief in Jesus (Greek indicates trust in, reliance on, etc.) baptism, etc.

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
"For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

We pay our girls to pick up walnuts, take the trash to the dumpster, and other odd jobs. They earn the money.

When it is their birthday, we give them gifts just because they are our daughters. Not because they earned the gifts.
When they were young we might tell them, "Once you've fed your pets and eaten breakfast, we will give you your birthday gifts."
So they did those things and then we said, "Ok. Sit on the couch and hold out your hands!"
All of these things are conditions for receiving their birthday gift. They would get these gifts no matter how many walnuts they picked up or how many bags of trash they carried.

There is a big difference between earning something and meeting the conditions for receiving a free gift.

Here are the conditions presented to me when I was saved - Romans 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[MaxPC]

I see the Bible as being a complete, contextual revelation. In addition to the teachings on grace and salvation through belief, the soteriology which I embrace also includes Jesus' teaching with the parables of the Sower and the Weeds from Matthew 13 (I have posted the ESV translation):

The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

The Parable of the Weeds
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Likewise the teaching from James 2:

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

[Josh]

Hillsong is probably the best example of a “gigachurch”. Their biggest campus had Sunday attendance of 20,000.