Soteriology and related matters

[Ernie]

I also disagree with you, Sudsy. I think that any issue can become a hell or heaven issue if the Holy Spirit is asking someone to do something and the person resists and does not eventually yield to the Holy Spirit.

I am always disturbed by the question "Is something a heaven or hell issue?" In my view it is so loaded with problematic thinking, assumptions, soteriology, that it's not even wrong.

joshuab, did you word this the way you wanted to say it?

We will have to agree to disagree. I am not resting my salvation on perfect obedience but rather on the gift I have received through what Jesus has done on my behalf. I may be resisting the Holy Spirit it in some area of my life and if I happened to die during this resistance period, I don't believe my salvation will be lost.

Just because I believe that anything can become a salvation issue or heaven/hell issue does not mean that I rest my salvation on perfect obedience. (As a young Christian, I thought my salvation did rest on perfect obedience/perfect repentance and I would not wish such an existence on anyone.) 35 years later I am still not perfect, yet I do have peace in my relationship with God. I am glad that God is still working on me. If I sin, Jesus is my advocate. I think this advocacy applies to sins I have repented of, as well as sins I am not yet aware of nor repented of.

But there is such a thing as an obedient child and there is such a thing as a disobedient child. This does not mean that the obedient child is always obedient and the disobedient child is always disobedient. We give these definitions to children based on their intent and actions.
I think there is a very equal parallel to the Christian's relationship with God. I believe salvation is gifted by Jesus, and is maintained by an obedient, love/faith relationship with God/Jesus.

[Josh]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

[Sudsy]

I also disagree with you, Sudsy. I think that any issue can become a hell or heaven issue if the Holy Spirit is asking someone to do something and the person resists and does not eventually yield to the Holy Spirit.

I am always disturbed by the question "Is something a heaven or hell issue?" In my view it is so loaded with problematic thinking, assumptions, soteriology, that it's not even wrong.

joshuab, did you word this the way you wanted to say it?

We will have to agree to disagree. I am not resting my salvation on perfect obedience but rather on the gift I have received through what Jesus has done on my behalf. I may be resisting the Holy Spirit it in some area of my life and if I happened to die during this resistance period, I don't believe my salvation will be lost.

Just because I believe that anything can become a salvation issue or heaven/hell issue does not mean that I rest my salvation on perfect obedience. (As a young Christian, I thought my salvation did rest on perfect obedience/perfect repentance and I would not wish such an existence on anyone.) 35 years later I am still not perfect, yet I do have peace in my relationship with God. I am glad that God is still working on me. If I sin, Jesus is my advocate. I think this advocacy applies to sins I have repented of, as well as sins I am not yet aware of nor repented of.

But there is such a thing as an obedient child and there is such a thing as a disobedient child. This does not mean that the obedient child is always obedient and the disobedient child is always disobedient. We give these definitions to children based on their intent and actions.
I think there is a very equal parallel to the Christian's relationship with God. I believe salvation is gifted by Jesus, and is maintained by an obedient, love/faith relationship with God/Jesus.

I'm with you all the way until the last statement. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'maintained'. Comparing our relationship to a human child/parent relationship, we don't normally disown a child for continued disobedience in some area but rather at some point allow them to experience the consequences of disobedience out of love. That is how I believe God operates.

I am one who strayed for years and lived in disobedience. Some might view this backsliding state as losing my salvation. For me, I never turned my back on my belief in what Jesus did to save me and deep in my heart, I knew Jesus was patiently waiting to restore fellowship. This happened through the Salvation Army and that is why I still am very fond of their ministry.

I appreciate your reply although I'm not sure we agree on when a person loses their salvation but perhaps we are not that different in belief.

[Sudsy]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

I have been in evangelical Protestant Christianity most of my life and to say what you state above is probably one of the largest untruths you have ever posted on this forum. 'Revels in their disobedience - - -' . Sad if this is truly what you believe.

[joshuabgood]

I also disagree with you, Sudsy. I think that any issue can become a hell or heaven issue if the Holy Spirit is asking someone to do something and the person resists and does not eventually yield to the Holy Spirit.

I am always disturbed by the question "Is something a heaven or hell issue?" In my view it is so loaded with problematic thinking, assumptions, soteriology, that it's not even wrong.

joshuab, did you word this the way you wanted to say it?

We will have to agree to disagree. I am not resting my salvation on perfect obedience but rather on the gift I have received through what Jesus has done on my behalf. I may be resisting the Holy Spirit it in some area of my life and if I happened to die during this resistance period, I don't believe my salvation will be lost.

Just because I believe that anything can become a salvation issue or heaven/hell issue does not mean that I rest my salvation on perfect obedience. (As a young Christian, I thought my salvation did rest on perfect obedience/perfect repentance and I would not wish such an existence on anyone.) 35 years later I am still not perfect, yet I do have peace in my relationship with God. I am glad that God is still working on me. If I sin, Jesus is my advocate. I think this advocacy applies to sins I have repented of, as well as sins I am not yet aware of nor repented of.

But there is such a thing as an obedient child and there is such a thing as a disobedient child. This does not mean that the obedient child is always obedient and the disobedient child is always disobedient. We give these definitions to children based on their intent and actions.
I think there is a very equal parallel to the Christian's relationship with God. I believe salvation is gifted by Jesus, and is maintained by an obedient, love/faith relationship with God/Jesus.

Yeah...I did mean it worded the way I had it. The question doesn't compute for me really. It feels nonsensical in a way. Why would some one even ask that? It is like asking my wife when something arises if it is a divorce issue? But what kind of marriage is that? What would it say about how we view each other? The question makes assumptions about the purpose of salvation being primarily futuristic and apocalyptic in ways that to me don't cohere with the Christ's kingdom come and the good news of the Kingdom and the present reign of Christ. It seems to mistake the method of God for legalism instead of perfect love that casts out fear. And it seems to minimize the simple beauty and restoration of discipleship.

[Josh]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

I have been in evangelical Protestant Christianity most of my life and to say what you state above is probably one of the largest untruths you have ever posted on this forum. 'Revels in their disobedience - - -' . Sad if this is truly what you believe.

I have literally heard preached from the pulpit that the purpose of the Sermon on the Mount is to show us how impossible it is for any of us to actually obey all of Jesus’ commandments (and thus we should rely on grace instead, and not follow what the Sermon on the Mount says).

[Sudsy]

One of the more interesting aspects of evangelical Protestant Christianity is its insistence that a Christian life is defined not by obedience to Jesus, Peter, and Paul, but the opposite: they teach that a true Christian doesn’t even try to obey Jesus’ and the apostle’s commandments, but rather revels in their disobedience as proof of how they rely on salvation via grace alone.

It is akin to a man who tells me how strong his marriage is because he has frequent affairs; to prove his wife’s unconditional love for him, he must need make sure never to be faithful to her or to please her, but rather must go out of his way to make sure his marriage is not built on “good works” but instead “grace and faith alone”.

I have been in evangelical Protestant Christianity most of my life and to say what you state above is probably one of the largest untruths you have ever posted on this forum. 'Revels in their disobedience - - -' . Sad if this is truly what you believe.

I have literally heard preached from the pulpit that the purpose of the Sermon on the Mount is to show us how impossible it is for any of us to actually obey all of Jesus’ commandments (and thus we should rely on grace instead, and not follow what the Sermon on the Mount says).

Never heard such a thing stated in more than 70 years where most of these was either in an Evangelical church or listening to sermons on the radio and TV. Look again at your first paragraph where it reads to me that you lump all evangelical Protestant Christianity as people who don't even try to obey Jesus but even revel in disobedience because they are saved by grace. I have even been in Baptist churches who would never say such a thing.

I probably would not have said anything if you had just stated what you last posted on what you literally have heard preached. Perhaps this was a hyper-Calvinist church ? I can't imagine it coming from anywhere else.

[Josh]

I have heard in a variety of denominations - Hillsong, “Rhema” The Word / Faith, Pentecostal, charismatic, Baptist, and others an exposition of Romans as making it clear it is impossible for us to live righteous lives, then laying out the plan of salvation as being “grace alone”, along with stating that one shouldn’t even try to have good works.

Perhaps you haven’t been exposed to this. If so, consider yourself blessed. I have talked to too many young men who struggled with a sin area and pastors, small group leaders, and others counselled them that as a Christian they should just expect to have persistent sin and be unable to overcome it.

[Ken]

I have heard in a variety of denominations - Hillsong, “Rhema” The Word / Faith, Pentecostal, charismatic, Baptist, and others an exposition of Romans as making it clear it is impossible for us to live righteous lives, then laying out the plan of salvation as being “grace alone”, along with stating that one shouldn’t even try to have good works.

Perhaps you haven’t been exposed to this. If so, consider yourself blessed. I have talked to too many young men who struggled with a sin area and pastors, small group leaders, and others counselled them that as a Christian they should just expect to have persistent sin and be unable to overcome it.

To cite one notable evangelical example of what Josh is talking about….

[Sudsy]

I have heard in a variety of denominations - Hillsong, “Rhema” The Word / Faith, Pentecostal, charismatic, Baptist, and others an exposition of Romans as making it clear it is impossible for us to live righteous lives, then laying out the plan of salvation as being “grace alone”, along with stating that one shouldn’t even try to have good works.

Perhaps you haven’t been exposed to this. If so, consider yourself blessed. I have talked to too many young men who struggled with a sin area and pastors, small group leaders, and others counselled them that as a Christian they should just expect to have persistent sin and be unable to overcome it.

I believe there is a mis-understanding on what is being preached as stated. But if you can refer me to a message by one of these groups I will check it out.

If whoever is saying we cannot live righteous lives because it is impossible, I have heard Romans used to say we cannot be saved by our own righteousness no matter how hard we try. It is only by His righteousness we are saved as ours is as 'filthy rags'. Our own righteousness will not save us. However, when born again, we will desire and pursue right living.

By 'grace alone' is true on God's part but that does not mean we don't play a role and that is through 'faith alone', a faith that produces good works. Some may preach that it is totally a work of God and nothing on our part but I believe scripture is clear that we are to respond to His call.

Not ever trying to have good works is with regard to not thinking you can be saved by any amount of good works. And when a person is born again this will produce good works. If it doesn't then one has not been born again.

I have never heard of any pastor suggesting to just accept that certain sins can't be overcome. It may be a lifelong battle in some area of sin but never to accept it as something you just cannot overcome. Wow, that was a first. God's grace is sufficient to save us from all sin.

I don't doubt there are some mis-leading presentations of the Gospel that saves us but in every evangelical group I have been part of, what you stated was never preached.

Again, point me to actual sermons on this so I can see if I understand what they are saying as you suggest they are.