Where did evil come from?

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lesterb
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Where did evil come from?

Post by lesterb »

Someone asked me recently how it is that evil started in heaven. Satan and the angels fell into sin before Adam and Eve did, so the first sin was actually in heaven itself. How does that mesh with our generally accepted ideas about heaven?

Of course the followup to this question would be, if it happened once, what keeps it from happening again? After we all get there?

I'd be interested in any good thoughts.
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Sudsy
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Sudsy »

My initial thought was that I believe God made both us an the angels with the ability to chose. Only through choice does love make sense. I would think some degree of choice will remain in heaven to allow for love and worship. Evil comes from choosing to not love God and to not respect His authority. If satan was cast out of heaven for his evil choice, perhaps we could too, who knows. I am not certain that we can understand what all is involved in the word 'eternal'. I believe it has a quality dimension and possibly some time limit beyond our understanding. Just my 2 cents, fwiw.
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Josh
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Josh »

Evil seems to come from rebelling against God's authority and trying to become greater than him, or choosing not to believe that he really does love us and have our best interest in mind.

The problem of theodicy is an interesting one - well worth studying - modern analytical philosophy has made great strides in this area.
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by MattY »

Great question. I'll just put on my speculative philosopher's hat here and offer a possibility. It will be a bit long. :blah:

Evil did not "come from" anywhere, in the sense that nothing outside of themselves "caused" or even influenced Satan and his followers to sin, outside of their own free choice. When angels were created, like humans, they had free choice. Unlike humans, they are not all descended from one pair (I assume they were all created individually, perhaps all at once, or perhaps not - which would mean there are younger and older angels based on when they were created - no way for us to know though). So they don't have a sin nature that got passed down through generations, unlike humans. And being part of the spirit realm, I think it's reasonable to think they have constant close fellowship with God, and it makes sense to think they probably can see spiritual truth that we cannot (though the reverse is also true - God gives us special knowledge as well and uses us to communicate certain spiritual truths to them).

So how or why did Satan's fall :evil: occur in the first place? Like the other angels, he would have enjoyed perfect fellowship with God. How could he have thought of going against God? I don't know, but he did. He was created with free will and the possibility to do so, and when he entertained the thought of being equal with God and let it grow in his heart, and presumably enticed a third of the angels to follow him, evil existed for the first time. And unlike us, there was no redemption for him.

So will we have choice in the eternal state, or will we be automatons only capable of doing good? And what about angels now - are they good robots, or why aren't they falling now? I suppose it's possible there will be no choice, but I tend to shy away from thinking that God really wants his creation to do good by divine fiat rather than by choice - why would he have given us free will in the first place then? If in the end, even his redeemed creation in the new Jerusalem can only be good if they have no other choice, isn't that rather like a defeat of the purpose of creation?

So - and again, this is totally speculation on my part - I would say we will have choice; but we will constantly and always choose good over evil. We will be in such close fellowship with God; we will fully see, and understand, the results of sin, and abhor it, because we will know Him, and have the mind of God. So we will always reject it. I also hypothesize that good angels also constantly choose to do good because they have fully seen the effects of sin and matured spiritually as a result. Again, total speculation, but I think it sounds reasonable. :P
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Valerie
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Valerie »

buckeyematt2 wrote:Great question. I'll just put on my speculative philosopher's hat here and offer a possibility. It will be a bit long. :blah:

Evil did not "come from" anywhere, in the sense that nothing outside of themselves "caused" or even influenced Satan and his followers to sin, outside of their own free choice. When angels were created, like humans, they had free choice. Unlike humans, they are not all descended from one pair (I assume they were all created individually, perhaps all at once, or perhaps not - which would mean there are younger and older angels based on when they were created - no way for us to know though). So they don't have a sin nature that got passed down through generations, unlike humans. And being part of the spirit realm, I think it's reasonable to think they have constant close fellowship with God, and it makes sense to think they probably can see spiritual truth that we cannot (though the reverse is also true - God gives us special knowledge as well and uses us to communicate certain spiritual truths to them).

So how or why did Satan's fall :evil: occur in the first place? Like the other angels, he would have enjoyed perfect fellowship with God. How could he have thought of going against God? I don't know, but he did. He was created with free will and the possibility to do so, and when he entertained the thought of being equal with God and let it grow in his heart, and presumably enticed a third of the angels to follow him, evil existed for the first time. And unlike us, there was no redemption for him.

So will we have choice in the eternal state, or will we be automatons only capable of doing good? And what about angels now - are they good robots, or why aren't they falling now? I suppose it's possible there will be no choice, but I tend to shy away from thinking that God really wants his creation to do good by divine fiat rather than by choice - why would he have given us free will in the first place then? If in the end, even his redeemed creation in the new Jerusalem can only be good if they have no other choice, isn't that rather like a defeat of the purpose of creation?

So - and again, this is totally speculation on my part - I would say we will have choice; but we will constantly and always choose good over evil. We will be in such close fellowship with God; we will fully see, and understand, the results of sin, and abhor it, because we will know Him, and have the mind of God. So we will always reject it. I also hypothesize that good angels also constantly choose to do good because they have fully seen the effects of sin and matured spiritually as a result. Again, total speculation, but I think it sounds reasonable. :P
Thank you- I am going to copy and paste this for my son to read- he definitely believes in God, but (and I have shared this on MD or MN before) he struggles with why God would create us to 'seemingly' be bent towards sin- I think this explanation will help -
To add to Lester's question- why would satan want to take us down with him? Because satan and his kingdom are instrumental in the area of tempting us- along with our 'own' sin/flesh/desires- but when the angelic realm was without (yet) the kingdom of darkness to entice them away- only their own free will and choice was tempting them-
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Robert »

When God resurrected Jesus, many "laws" and things changed. What was is not what is.
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Sudsy »

Robert wrote:When God resurrected Jesus, many "laws" and things changed. What was is not what is.
For instance ?
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Robert
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Robert »

Sudsy wrote: For instance ?
[bible]john 3,17-21[/bible]

Humanity no longer has to be good enough or earn our way to eternal life, it is now a gift.
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Neto »

Robert wrote:
Sudsy wrote: For instance ?
[bible]john 3,17-21[/bible]

Humanity no longer has to be good enough or earn our way to eternal life, it is now a gift.
Has anyone ever been able to earn their way to eternal life? (I don't read the Law that way - I think it was always as Paul says, a 'schoolmaster to bring us to Christ'.)
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Sudsy
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Re: Where did evil come from?

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
Robert wrote:
Sudsy wrote: For instance ?
[bible]john 3,17-21[/bible]

Humanity no longer has to be good enough or earn our way to eternal life, it is now a gift.
Has anyone ever been able to earn their way to eternal life? (I don't read the Law that way - I think it was always as Paul says, a 'schoolmaster to bring us to Christ'.)
Hebrews 11 tells us it has always been faith in God confirmed by our obedience through to the day we die. Right ?
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