Usury, Anyone?

General Christian Theology
Ernie
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by Ernie »

joshuabgood wrote:I don't like the idea of making money without actually producing anything of value. It appeals to the worse angels of our nature. Making money doing nothing.
Would you agree with this statement? "The owner of a business should not be making more money per hour than what someone of his skill is worth."
If agreed, then that seems consistent with not charging interest.
If not agreed, then it seems you are promoting the concept of someone owning a business and making good money on one's investment, while discouraging a person lending his money to someone else and charging interest, so that he can give his attention more fully to some kingdom work other than business.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by joshuabgood »

Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I don't like the idea of making money without actually producing anything of value. It appeals to the worse angels of our nature. Making money doing nothing.
Would you agree with this statement? "The owner of a business should not be making more money per hour than what someone of his skill is worth."
If agreed, then that seems consistent with not charging interest.
If not agreed, then it seems you are promoting the concept of someone owning a business and making good money on one's investment, while discouraging a person lending his money to someone else and charging interest, so that he can give his attention more fully to some kingdom work other than business.
Well...the tricky thing probably is what one means by "of his skill." Is his skill the business organizing, "seeing market conditions," ability to respond to market conditions, ability to hire/manage HR, or is it actually say "making the containers," or some combination of both?

I don't really have a "black and white" answer. But generally, I think making money from organizing a business is different than having "inherited" or otherwise earned "trust funds" that enable a person to live off of interest without producing anything of worth, except enabling their consumption.

I am aware that it does break down a bit, since earning interest does mean that you are loaning out money, taking risk, and probably enabling some other endeavor somewhere that is likely "creating jobs."

Like I had mentioned - I don't really think "consuming/living off of interest" is really very great idea with regard to "holiness." It may or may not be consistent logically - but empirically, I think there is plenty of evidence it is true and it is also affirmed in what Jesus taught when he said that it is very difficult for the rich to be members of the kingdom of heaven. Those earning usury are almost always rich.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by joshuabgood »

Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I also hesitate to say folks shouldn't charge interest for investment terms...
Not sure what you mean by this.

Also, How would you feel about a person being heavily involved in the finances of the organization or individual he loans money to and helps them make good financial decisions? In exchange for this financial advising, the person is given a percentage of annual return on the money he invests.
A couple of typo's there.

Basically, I would stop short saying folks should absolutely not charge interest on investments. Generally, in response to your point, I wonder if it is healthy for an individual, especially if they are brothers in the church, make "large loans" to organizations. It sets up an unhealthy balance of power. In some ways I'd rather the bank do the lending. If they won't, it probably isn't a sound investment anyway. And it may be better, possibly, to let the organization that needs the "big loans" liquidate.

Again these are just a few ideas and thinking outloud - I really don't consider myself that savvy when it comes to finances.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by joshuabgood »

joshuabgood wrote:
Ernie wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I also hesitate to say folks shouldn't charge interest for investment terms...
Not sure what you mean by this.

Also, How would you feel about a person being heavily involved in the finances of the organization or individual he loans money to and helps them make good financial decisions? In exchange for this financial advising, the person is given a percentage of annual return on the money he invests.
A couple of typo's there.

Basically, I would stop short saying folks should absolutely not charge interest on investments. Generally, in response to your point, I wonder if it is healthy for an individual, especially if they are brothers in the church, to make "large loans" to organizations. It could well set up an unhealthy balance of power in the brotherhood. In some ways I'd rather the bank do the lending if it is necessary. If they won't, it probably isn't a sound investment anyway. And it may be better, possibly, to let the organization, that needs the "big loans," to liquidate.

Again these are just a few ideas and thinking out loud - I really don't consider myself that savvy when it comes to finances.
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Ernie
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by Ernie »

JoshB,

I would encourage the majority of Christians (who have some savings and want to get some return on it) to invest it in someone or some business that is going to use it for a good cause instead of using it to enlarge or start a business that they don't need. (This is assuming the Christian does not want to offer an interest free loan or give the money away.)

Then I would encourage them to get a job that was of some benefit to mankind or get involved in ministry and use the interest income to support their ministry or further the Kingdom of God.
I think that the majority of people who think they will start a business or enlarge one to advance the Kingdom of God, could do much more for the Kingdom and stay much more focused if they didn't have business worries.

Why would you not do this or would you?
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joshuabgood
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by joshuabgood »

Ernie wrote:JoshB,

I would encourage the majority of Christians (who have some savings and want to get some return on it) to invest it in someone or some business that is going to use it for a good cause instead of using it to enlarge or start a business that they don't need. (This is assuming the Christian does not want to offer an interest free loan or give the money away.)

Then I would encourage them to get a job that was of some benefit to mankind or get involved in ministry and use the interest income to support their ministry or further the Kingdom of God.
I think that the majority of people who think they will start a business or enlarge one to advance the Kingdom of God, could do much more for the Kingdom and stay much more focused if they didn't have business worries.

Why would you not do this or would you?
If the money isn't needed, and won't be used to start or sustain a business (which at least would create some jobs), or be given away to other needs, then my question would be "How much should be 'saved?'" just to be saved to "make money on money?"

I thought the question at hand was whether or not "charging interest" is a good idea. I would idealize that Christians wouldn't get rich and increase their capital/financial/economic power through usury...but I am stopping short of calling for its abolition as that is probably too radical considering where my current thoughts are. I am thinking more ideally rather than "ought to be."

My question is...how does having trust funds and hundreds of thousands or millions (in the bank earning interest) mesh with what Jesus taught and lived? Did they, or any other early Christians, live off of interest, and then serve the Lord without having to work? Does the principle of "saving" lots of money, greasing the wheels of capitalism through investment, and then living on the proceeds fit well with new Kingdom thinking?

Having said that if one is living "off the interest," and "serving in ministry," I don't think I would be the guy to judge them.

It doesn't feel ideal right to me. Thus my ideals...though probably not convictions.
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Haystack
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

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Ernie wrote:I would encourage the majority of Christians (who have some savings and want to get some return on it) to invest it in someone or some business that is going to use it for a good cause instead of using it to enlarge or start a business that they don't need.
Ernie, can you clarify the statement in bold, mostly the part about business that they don't need? Are you saying that instead of someone starting a business they should help a brother with their business financially before or instead of starting their own?
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Josh
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by Josh »

It's pretty hard to minister effectively if you don't work. A lot of people will not be receptive to your message at all.
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Josh
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

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Josh wrote:It's pretty hard to minister effectively if you don't work. A lot of people will not be receptive to your message at all.
Related to this, I realised in my own past, it's very, very hard to accept input from someone who has never had to face financial difficulties and has a huge amount of financial security, including security through family and church connections.

If you have a profitable business and hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, and have never faced want or hardship, you simply won't be very effective in being a brother to someone facing a lot of difficulties. People in such a position have tried to help me before, but unfortunately they just have no idea at all what people like me go through. Their advice tends to consist of:

1. Stop being poor

2. Stop being so lazy

3. Stop caring about money so much

I myself am having difficulty being credible in a small mens' finances accountability group, simply because I make a lot more than some of the other people there. I do know what it's like to be absolutely broke, but I've never stayed a few nights in a homeless shelter like one man there. And he does work, he just doesn't make enough money.

It really helps that I can somewhat relate to his position. I asked another man to join our group who makes a modest income but is good at saving/budgeting.

I would argue the people I know who are the best ministers of the gospel are the people I know who have spent time on the streets, often not knowing where their next meal would come from. They truly are able to relate to me when they talk about fully trusting God for all my needs.
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JohnHurt
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Re: Usury, Anyone?

Post by JohnHurt »

JimFoxvog wrote:I respect C. S. Lewis on this one:
C. S. Lewis on Lending Money with Interest

There is one bit of advice given to us by the ancient heathen Greeks, and by the Jews in the Old Testament, and by the great Christian teachers of the Middle Ages, which the modern economic system has completely disobeyed. All these people told us not to lend money at interest: and lending money at interest — what we call investment — is the basis of our whole system. Now it may not absolutely follow that we are wrong. Some people say that when Moses and Aristotle and the Christians agreed in forbidding interest (or “usury” as they called it), they could not foresee the joint stock company, and were only dunking of the private moneylender, and that, therefore, we need not bother about what they said.

That is a question I cannot decide on. I am not an economist and I simply do not know whether the investment system is responsible for the state we are in or not. This is where we want the Christian economist. But I should not have been honest if I had not told you that three great civilizations had agreed (or so it seems at first sight) in condemning the very thing on which we have based our whole life.

C. S. Lewis – Mere Christianity
While I believe we don't have to follow Old Testament law legalistically, I think this is more helping us understand "you shall not steal."
C. S. Lewis is referencing Solon in ancient Athens, who released all debts to stop a civil war. Also, Aristotle reasoned that money was sterile, and so could not reproduce itself, and should not be loaned at usury.

The Catholic church defined usury as where the lender did not share in the risk of the enterprise. The lender was to be paid, regardless. This is what created the joint stock company, where all share equally in the risks, for if the enterprise fails, then no one will receive a return on investment.

My Amish friends won't accept a check. But, when you make a donation of a check to them, the check won't clear for 60-90 days, and when it does clear, it has been signed over to someone else to cash. So they don't use banks.

I was wondering if there were any religious tracts that prohibited interest. I am always interested in their Biblical and moral arguments.

Thanks,

John
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