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Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 5:29 pm
by JohnHurt
Friends,
Are there any Anabaptist groups, or other Christians, that forbid usury and do not use banks?
The prohibition against usury is based on Psalms 15:1,5 and other verses, and was a common understanding in many churches in the 1600's.
The Plymouth colony in 1620 and others were founded with joint stock companies, not banks, as banking was not something a Christian could participate in at that time, due to the prohibitions against usury in the Bible.
Some of my Amish friends apparently do not use banks. I have never asked them, but wondered if this prohibition against usury was still practiced by the Amish certain groups.
I am especially interested in their theological arguments against usury, as well as any historical reasons.
Thanks for your help.
John
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:20 pm
by Josh
I would first define "usury". In an economy with inflation, charging interest isn't the same thing as usury.
I personally do not charge usury / interest to anyone.
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:03 pm
by Hats Off
There is at least one old order Mennonite group in Ontario that would not buy RRSP, or otherwise invest money anywhere other than in their own church community. When young men are buying million dollar farms every dollar that the community has as individuals is needed to fund these purchases. I am not sure that they actually have a theology for this other than for every one to help his brother as much as is possible. In turn, they will get the same help if they are buying farms for their sons or grandsons. I don't believe they charge any interest.
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:51 pm
by lesterb
Hats Off wrote:There is at least one old order Mennonite group in Ontario that would not buy RRSP, or otherwise invest money anywhere other than in their own church community. When young men are buying million dollar farms every dollar that the community has as individuals is needed to fund these purchases. I am not sure that they actually have a theology for this other than for every one to help his brother as much as is possible. In turn, they will get the same help if they are buying farms for their sons or grandsons. I don't believe they charge any interest.
No, but they do have to agree to deposit their profits into the shared account once they become profitable. Apparently some years ago they used to give charitable donations receipts for those deposits but the government disallowed them and they ended up paying penalties of over a million dollars.
My gut feeling is that they have saved an immense amount of money as a community. Dollars count louder than the Bible for many of those people.
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:52 pm
by JimFoxvog
I respect C. S. Lewis on this one:
C. S. Lewis on Lending Money with Interest
There is one bit of advice given to us by the ancient heathen Greeks, and by the Jews in the Old Testament, and by the great Christian teachers of the Middle Ages, which the modern economic system has completely disobeyed. All these people told us not to lend money at interest: and lending money at interest — what we call investment — is the basis of our whole system. Now it may not absolutely follow that we are wrong. Some people say that when Moses and Aristotle and the Christians agreed in forbidding interest (or “usury” as they called it), they could not foresee the joint stock company, and were only dunking of the private moneylender, and that, therefore, we need not bother about what they said.
That is a question I cannot decide on. I am not an economist and I simply do not know whether the investment system is responsible for the state we are in or not. This is where we want the Christian economist. But I should not have been honest if I had not told you that three great civilizations had agreed (or so it seems at first sight) in condemning the very thing on which we have based our whole life.
C. S. Lewis – Mere Christianity
While I believe we don't have to follow Old Testament law legalistically, I think this is more helping us understand "you shall not steal."
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:43 am
by Josh
Ultimately, the question is if God wants us to use wealth to make even more wealth without us working for it. I don't think he does.
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:59 am
by Ernie
Josh wrote:Ultimately, the question is if God wants us to use wealth to make even more wealth without us working for it. I don't think he does.
Does it make a difference to you as to whether a man' wealth is cash or land?
For example, if a man owns 25 acres of farm land, should he not rent it out for more dollars per acre than what the taxes cost.
And do you think the land owner should not rent it out on equal "shares"? Should he only receive as much of the crop as it takes to pay his taxes and selling costs?
And in your mind, would it be ok for a man to have a business in which he buys properties and rents them out?
Does it make a difference to you if his work is improving the properties and renting them out vs. his only work being research and paperwork related to the buying and renting of properties?
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:43 am
by joshuabgood
I would idealize what Josh is proposing. I don't like the idea of making money without actually producing anything of value. It appeals to the worse angels of our nature. Making money doing nothing.
Of course I also don't like interest because I have been on the wrong side of it far more than the right side =).
Having said that - I stop short of saying people should not take out mortgages to buy homes or start businesses. I also hesitate to say folks shouldn't charge interest for investment terms...
Rather I usually say I would idealize another way...
Josh
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:16 am
by Hats Off
lesterb wrote:Hats Off wrote:There is at least one old order Mennonite group in Ontario that would not buy RRSP, or otherwise invest money anywhere other than in their own church community. When young men are buying million dollar farms every dollar that the community has as individuals is needed to fund these purchases. I am not sure that they actually have a theology for this other than for every one to help his brother as much as is possible. In turn, they will get the same help if they are buying farms for their sons or grandsons. I don't believe they charge any interest.
No, but they do have to agree to deposit their profits into the shared account once they become profitable. Apparently some years ago they used to give charitable donations receipts for those deposits but the government disallowed them and they ended up paying penalties of over a million dollars.
My gut feeling is that they have saved an immense amount of money as a community. Dollars count louder than the Bible for many of those people.
I was thinking of the Orthodox Mennonites - they have a reasonable perspective, I believe.
Re: Usury, Anyone?
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 10:51 am
by Ernie
joshuabgood wrote:I also hesitate to say folks shouldn't charge interest for investment terms...
Not sure what you mean by this.
Also, How would you feel about a person being heavily involved in the finances of the organization or individual he loans money to and helps them make good financial decisions? In exchange for this financial advising, the person is given a percentage of annual return on the money he invests.