The ten commandments - I'd rather not use them this way

[Ken]

Repent of what?

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

How very Christian of you.

There is a big pile of stones over there in the corner. Go ahead and pick up the first one.

[Josh]

Repent of what?

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

How very Christian of you.

There is a big pile of stones over there in the corner. Go ahead and pick up the first one.

I’m not picking up any stones. I simply believe that:

- governments should punish murderers, child molesters and so on
- governments can use appropriate punishments such as imprisonment or capital punishment for the most serious crimes.

Do you think murderers should go unpunished?

[Ken]

Repent of what?

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

How very Christian of you.

There is a big pile of stones over there in the corner. Go ahead and pick up the first one.

I’m not picking up any stones. I simply believe that:

- governments should punish murderers, child molesters and so on
- governments can use appropriate punishments such as imprisonment or capital punishment for the most serious crimes.

Do you think murderers should go unpunished?

This isn't about whether we should arrest and convict murders. This is about YOU claiming that capital punishment in 2023 is ordained by God despite Jesus's message to the contrary.

This is where your thirst for capital punishment comes from. You still faithfully doing all of these things?

[Outsider]

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

Under the letter of the law, a lot of things called for capital punishment. A disobedient son is subject to death under the law. Cursing a parent is a death penalty offense. And so on...

What if a person is falsely accused? And falsely judged? It has come to light many times after an execution that the defendant has been proven innocent. Do you think you are absolved from innocent blood merely because you were only in the crowd cheerleading the punishment, and not actually participating in the act? Were the Jews who were shouting "Crucify him!" to Pilate not guilty of his blood as much as the Romans who put the nails into him and raised him up on the cross?

I thank God that I've never been tested by having something like that happen to any of the children I love- it would be hard for me to stand by and watch someone hurt any of them. But is that not what non-resistance calls us to do?

The justice of man can err. And man cannot recall from the grave his error. A man imprisoned for life, and vindicated, can be released...

[Josh]

I simply believe that the magistrate has the duty to bear the sword and is ordained by God to do so. The magistrate may arrest us, convict us, imprison us, use lawful restraint including killing is in self defence if we attack the magistrate, and capital punishment.

I am not sure where you get the idea Jesus said the state should not enact capital punishment. Jesus never said how the state should be run at all.

My opinion stands: I think capital punishment is acceptable for certain crimes. I would say American capital punishment in the present era is quite just. The only people being executed have had 20-30 years of appeals and are usually convicted of heinous crimes.

If you hold a political opinion against capital punishment, that’s you’re right to do so. As a Christian, my duty is to avoid needlessly breaking just laws as detailed in Romans.

[Ken]

I simply believe that the magistrate has the duty to bear the sword and is ordained by God to do so. The magistrate may arrest us, convict us, imprison us, use lawful restraint including killing is in self defence if we attack the magistrate, and capital punishment.

I am not sure where you get the idea Jesus said the state should not enact capital punishment. Jesus never said how the state should be run at all.

My opinion stands: I think capital punishment is acceptable for certain crimes. I would say American capital punishment in the present era is quite just. The only people being executed have had 20-30 years of appeals and are usually convicted of heinous crimes.

If you hold a political opinion against capital punishment, that’s you’re right to do so. As a Christian, my duty is to avoid needlessly breaking just laws as detailed in Romans.

So you would rather not get your hands dirty and just hire others to do your killing for you? That is a commonly held position so you are in good company.

As for Jesus and the state? We live in a democracy so the state is us. You pay for it and it acts with your authority and on your behalf. This is what Jesus actually said about the Old Testament law and the capital punishment you are eager for (John 8:1-11)

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[Josh]

So you would rather not get your hands dirty and just hire others to do your killing for you? That is a commonly held position so you are in good company.[/quotes

How do you expect society to function without things like police and the state using force?

As for Jesus and the state? We live in a democracy so the state is us. You pay for it and it acts with your authority and on your behalf.

I don’t pay for any of it. I have my money forcefully taken from me (at the barrel of a gun) to pay for the state. I never agreed to pay for the police or for executioners (and police kill a lot more people than capital punishment does.)

[Ken]

I don’t pay for any of it. I have my money forcefully taken from me (at the barrel of a gun) to pay for the state. I never agreed to pay for the police or for executioners (and police kill a lot more people than capital punishment does.)

But of course you support the state. You said so yourself a few posts upstream. In fact you claimed the state is ordained by God and implementing God's law

Let's rewind....

I fully support the state, through proper law, executing people who commit capital crimes.

Of course, as a Christian, I wouldn’t be an executioner. But it’s abundantly clear in God’s law that he expects the magistrate to indeed enact justice. “He does not bear the sword in vain.”

and again....

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

and again....

I simply believe that the magistrate has the duty to bear the sword and is ordained by God to do so.

and again....

I am not sure where you get the idea Jesus said the state should not enact capital punishment. Jesus never said how the state should be run at all.

My opinion stands: I think capital punishment is acceptable for certain crimes. I would say American capital punishment in the present era is quite just. The only people being executed have had 20-30 years of appeals and are usually convicted of heinous crimes.

So clearly you support the state and believe it is ordained by God and implementing God's law when engaged in capital punishment. You just don't want to get your hands dirty or pay for it. How very egocentric.

[Franklin]

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

Do you also avoid pork and shellfish?

I am not Christian and I follow the Old Testament. But from Hebrew, I know that the Old Testament is not a law book. The Hebrew "ha-torah" is mistranslated as "the law" when it should be something like "the teaching". The Old Testament contains many laws that made sense at the time, including not eating pork and shellfish. But the teaching is just to not eat unclean food.

The Old Testament makes clear that killing in self defense when there is no other choice is justified (Exodus 22:2–3). The cases where the OT prescribes capital punishment are only cases where this is needed for the self-defense of the community. I mean you can't let murderers live among society because this is too dangerous. In OT times, there was no alternative, so capital punishment was needed. Now we have jail, so capital punishment is not needed for self defense. I can't see how killing a person when not needed for self defense can be considered anything other than murder. So I view capital punishment in modern times as murder by government.

[ken_sylvania]

I think the government should enforce laws against law-breakers, and yes, some violations of God’s law such as murder indeed call for capital punishment. Take it up with God if you don’t like his law.

Do you also avoid pork and shellfish?

I am not Christian and I follow the Old Testament. But from Hebrew, I know that the Old Testament is not a law book. The Hebrew "ha-torah" is mistranslated as "the law" when it should be something like "the teaching". The Old Testament contains many laws that made sense at the time, including not eating pork and shellfish. But the teaching is just to not eat unclean food.

The Old Testament makes clear that killing in self defense when there is no other choice is justified (Exodus 22:2–3). The cases where the OT prescribes capital punishment are only cases where this is needed for the self-defense of the community. I mean you can't let murderers live among society because this is too dangerous. In OT times, there was no alternative, so capital punishment was needed. Now we have jail, so capital punishment is not needed for self defense. I can't see how killing a person when not needed for self defense can be considered anything other than murder. So I view capital punishment in modern times as murder by government.

They had jails in OT times too.