What do we mean by "hate"?

[Ken]

Here's a response I got when asking "how do I know when I am feeling hate":

There are several signs that may indicate that you are feeling hate. Some of these include:

• Intense feelings of anger or rage towards a person or group of people
• A desire to harm or inflict harm on someone or something
• Prejudice or discrimination towards a certain group of people
• Negative thoughts or stereotypes associated with a certain group of people
• An unwillingness to understand or consider the perspectives or feelings of others
• A feeling of superiority over others

It's important to note that it's normal to have negative feelings or disagree with someone, but hate is an intense and prolonged form of this. If you find yourself struggling with intense feelings of hate, you may want to look for help.

What do you think of that from a biblical point of view? Does any of this rhyme with Jesus and the New Testament?

Most of those signs are modern nonsense:
- There is a general mixture of reasonable thinking on the one side and feelings on the other side.

- Reasonable thinking implies that I look at a person's behaviour as positive or negative (w.r.t. an outcome), that I see some persons as superior to others (w.r.t. a particular function or ability) and that I do prognoses about how people will probably behave (according to what I see or know of them and what experiences I have made before with "similar" people) - which is the definition of prejudice and stereotype).
I would not give up any of those reasonable habits which are important for personal success and for the evolution of a human civilisation. I would not give them up even if the N.T. did demand that - but I don't see that the N.T. demands it.

- A complete different matter are negative feelings. The best way to control oneself is: Which feelings have I when I see the fortune or misfortune of someone else? Do I begrudge his fortune? Or am I glad about his misfortune? In both cases I am at a slippery slope into what might become intense hate.

As for identity groups: If an id.group is defined by certain moral standards we of course can apply those moral standards to its members. If the id. group is not defined by moral standards - most id. groups are not - we have no right to apply higher standards to our co-members than to non-members.

Hate is an emotion.

The above list is all actions. Hate may be expressed by any or all of those actions (and many others not listed). But those actions are not necessarily hate on their own. Some of those actions might well be motivated by other emotions rather than hate.

[Sudsy]

I found this in a blog as an interesting way to look at hating actions by people yet loving the person -

In his book Mere Christianity, Christian commentator C. S. Lewis (who was an atheist before he became a Christian) indicated that, before his conversion, he used to think of the concept of hating the sin, but not the sinner as "a silly, straw-splitting distinction." However, he eventually came to realize that there was one person to whom he had been doing precisely that his whole life -- himself. He said, "However much I might dislike my own cowardice, or conceit, or greed, I went on loving myself. There had never been the slightest difficulty about it. In fact, the very reason why I hated the things was that I loved the man. Just because I loved myself, I was sorry to find that I was the sort of man who did those things."

So, regardless of the actions of a Putin or a Trump or anyone, we still can love them as there are things we hate about ourselves yet we still love ourself.

[PetrChelcicky]

My personal explanation for the differences over the meaning of the term is the following:
Over the years there has developed a typical Puritan tendency of "fighting hate" (Puritanism is a mindset which is constantly fighting sins, one fashionable sin at a time.)
Now, if a term becomes a "fighting concept" ("Kampfbegriff", as we say in German), more and more people join the fight bringing with them their personal grievances, which leads to a widening of the concept, making it vague and unhandable.
(N.B. this is my objection against the term "abuse", too.)

An example is the case of the black girl who is denied admission to a medical school. Personally I think that, if she is really and intrinsically interested (in the job itself) she ought to be admitted as long as there is any chance that she succeeds. So I am not fanatical about merit or degree of ability. But if she is only extrinsically interested (in the money and the honor connected with the job), she should politely be counselled to look for another opportunity. In any case, dismissing the black girl may be right or wrong, but it is rarely a case of hate. The concept of hate is stretched too far here.

[Ken]

Bootstrap, Ken and I seem to have a lot in common here. My personal explanation for the differences over the meaning of the term is the following:
Over the years there has developed a typical Puritan tendency of "fighting hate" (Puritanism is a mindset which is constantly fighting sins, some fashionable sins at a time.)
Now, if a term becomes a "fighting concept" ("Kampfbegriff", as we say in German), more and more people join the fight bringing with them their personal grievances, which leads to a widening of the concept, making it vague and unhandable.

This is for example the case of the black girl who is denied admission to a medical school. Personally I think that, if she is really and intrinsically interested (in the job itself) she ought to be admitted as long as there is any chance that she succeeds. So I am not fanatical about merit or degree of ability. But if she is only extrinsically interested (in the money and the honor connected with the job), she should politely be counselled to look for another opportunity. In any case, dismissing the black girl may be right or wrong, but it is rarely a case of hate. The concept of hate is stretched too far here.

But you can start with overt racial hatred that allows one to hold hundreds of Black people in slavery and treat them absolutely brutally for over two and a half centuries

And then the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of those slavers can perpetuate that hatred for a 100 more years of brutal Jim Crow segregation and discrimination

Such that when the last waves of that 350 years of overt hatred finally wash up on our shore in 2023 it means that a black girl has a lower chance of becoming a doctor compared to a white girl for a long list of reasons, some of them reaching back centuries. Despite the fact that maybe no one alive today here in 2023 actually hates her.

Put another way, hate can still be at the root of why many things are the way they are today, even if those who originally perpetrated that hatred are long dead.

[Josh]

But you can start with overt racial hatred that allows one to hold hundreds of Black people in slavery and treat them absolutely brutally for over two and a half centuries

And then the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of those slavers can perpetuate that hatred for a 100 more years of brutal Jim Crow segregation and discrimination

Such that when the last waves of that 350 years of overt hatred finally wash up on our shore in 2023 it means that a black girl has a lower chance of becoming a doctor compared to a white girl for a long list of reasons, some of them reaching back centuries. Despite the fact that maybe no one alive today here in 2023 actually hates her.

But none of that has to do with allowing black applicants with much lower MCAT scores to be accepted into medical school than Asian applicants.

Put another way, hate can still be at the root of why many things are the way they are today, even if those who originally perpetrated that hatred are long dead.

No, it isn’t. If I want a doctor who is competent and well trained, “hate” is not at the root of that.

[Ken]

But you can start with overt racial hatred that allows one to hold hundreds of Black people in slavery and treat them absolutely brutally for over two and a half centuries

And then the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of those slavers can perpetuate that hatred for a 100 more years of brutal Jim Crow segregation and discrimination

Such that when the last waves of that 350 years of overt hatred finally wash up on our shore in 2023 it means that a black girl has a lower chance of becoming a doctor compared to a white girl for a long list of reasons, some of them reaching back centuries. Despite the fact that maybe no one alive today here in 2023 actually hates her.

But none of that has to do with allowing black applicants with much lower MCAT scores to be accepted into medical school than Asian applicants.

Put another way, hate can still be at the root of why many things are the way they are today, even if those who originally perpetrated that hatred are long dead.

No, it isn’t. If I want a doctor who is competent and well trained, “hate” is not at the root of that.

Ah, that is the point. Why does someone from a rich white suburb who has attended the best schools and attended the "best" colleges score higher on the MCAT than someone who attended under-resourced and crumbling schools in a poor black area and then maybe a pathway from community college into a regional state school? Are they innately more intelligent and more deserving of attending taxpayer supported public med schools? Or have they just been trained and self-selected to do better on a specific standardized test?

We have a massive shortage of primary care doctors, especially those willing to work in underprivileged and underserved rural areas. Does a system that selects for wealthier mostly white and Asian applicants from wealthier urban areas using a single standardized test like the MCAT actually provide us with the best possible pool of doctors to serve all corners of the US? Or does it produce a big surplus of doctors competing for highly lucrative and comfortable urban/suburban residency specialties like plastic surgery, orthopedic surgery and dermatology? And a shortage of doctors eager to work in poorer and less privileged communities?

Rural medicine is fast disappearing in this country. Part of the reason (but far from the only reason) is that we have designed a system of selecting and training doctors that largely picks elite students from wealthy urban areas who are the least likely to want to work and serve in rural and underprivileged areas. The rich get richer so to speak. Rural areas and poorer areas pay plenty of taxes to support public universities and medical schools. But they get less out of the deal in part because of how medical schools select for students. Women on average also score lower on the MCAT than men, but also make measurably better primary care doctors than men. That should tell you something right there.

The reasons for all of this are very complicated. But one obvious reason is the 350 years of slavery and segregation that have created the landscape that we live in. Where a black child is far more likely to be poor and grow up attending poorer and less well resourced schools segregated schools than a white child. And as a consequence, less likely to do well on the MCAT and gain admittance into the public med school that her family's tax dollars support. Is that because her parent's and school didn't have the money and resources to send her to expensive SAT prep programs when she was 16 and 17 and applying to college, and then again when she was 21 and applying to medical school? Or because she is just innately less capable of being a doctor?

[Josh]

Ah, that is the point. Why does someone from a rich white suburb who has attended the best schools and attended the "best" colleges score higher on the MCAT than someone who attended under-resourced and crumbling schools in a poor black area and then maybe a pathway from community college into a regional state school? Are they innately more intelligent and more deserving of attending taxpayer supported public med schools? Or have they just been trained and self-selected to do better on a specific standardized test?

Asians have been incredibly disadvantaged in this country and yet they score high in the MCAT. Are you saying the MCAT was designed to give Asians an advantage and white people a disadvantage compared to Asians?

You seem to think the concept of merit can’t exist. I think it can. Some people are cut out to be doctors, but most people aren’t.

And stop with the nonsense of “taxpayer supported med schools”. The school in question that decided to replace the MCAT with racial based preferences was Penn, which is not a public school and is also notoriously expensive. Doctors graduate with a lot of student debt.

Ultimately. Doctors need to be qualified and do a good job. And I’d rather not have to stop and consider if my doctor isn’t white or Asian, “Is he or she actually trained and qualified?” And that is exactly what racial based admissions will lead to.

Rural areas and poorer areas pay plenty of taxes to support public universities and medical schools.

Are you asserting that poor people in America pay taxes? Half of Americans pay no taxes at all and a substantial fraction of that actually receive net benefits from the government. The bulk of the tax burden is paid by the upper middle class.

[Ken]

Ah, that is the point. Why does someone from a rich white suburb who has attended the best schools and attended the "best" colleges score higher on the MCAT than someone who attended under-resourced and crumbling schools in a poor black area and then maybe a pathway from community college into a regional state school? Are they innately more intelligent and more deserving of attending taxpayer supported public med schools? Or have they just been trained and self-selected to do better on a specific standardized test?

Asians have been incredibly disadvantaged in this country and yet they score high in the MCAT. Are you saying the MCAT was designed to give Asians an advantage and white people a disadvantage compared to Asians?

You seem to think the concept of merit can’t exist. I think it can. Some people are cut out to be doctors, but most people aren’t.

And stop with the nonsense of “taxpayer supported med schools”. The school in question that decided to replace the MCAT with racial based preferences was Penn, which is not a public school and is also notoriously expensive. Doctors graduate with a lot of student debt.

Ultimately. Doctors need to be qualified and do a good job. And I’d rather not have to stop and consider if my doctor isn’t white or Asian, “Is he or she actually trained and qualified?” And that is exactly what racial based admissions will lead to.

Rural areas and poorer areas pay plenty of taxes to support public universities and medical schools.

Are you asserting that poor people in America pay taxes? Half of Americans pay no taxes at all and a substantial fraction of that actually receive net benefits from the government. The bulk of the tax burden is paid by the upper middle class.

1. Yes I am simply saying that 350 years of hatred and racism is one of many reasons why poor black girl from the south is likely to score lower on standardized admissions tests like the SAT and MCAT than white counterparts from more advantage backgrounds. And why she is less likely to become a doctor in general. It is one of the lingering effects of 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow segregation. This is not a controversial position to take.

2. Don't confuse Federal and State taxes. Universities are supported by state taxes. Texas, for example, has no state income tax which means that sales taxes are the primary source of state revenue. And yes, everyone pays sales tax. In fact it is a regressive tax in that the poor pay a much higher percentage of their income or wealth in sales tax than to do the wealthy. The second biggest source of state revenue is franchise tax which is the state business tax and that just gets passed on to consumers as well. So yes, everyone in Texas pay taxes to support the state university system.

[Josh]

1. Yes I am simply saying that 350 years of hatred and racism is one of many reasons why poor black girl from the south is likely to score lower on standardized admissions tests like the SAT and MCAT than white counterparts from more advantage backgrounds. And why she is less likely to become a doctor in general. It is one of the lingering effects of 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow segregation. This is not a controversial position to take.

Chinese Americans were treated horribly who came over to work on the railroads, in near slavery conditions. Japanese Americans were rounded up and put in camps.

Why aren’t their MCAT scores affected at all?

2. Don't confuse Federal and State taxes. Universities are supported by state taxes. Texas, for example, has no state income tax which means that sales taxes are the primary source of state revenue. And yes, everyone pays sales tax. In fact it is a regressive tax in that the poor pay a much higher percentage of their income or wealth in sales tax than to do the wealthy. The second biggest source of state revenue is franchise tax which is the state business tax and that just gets passed on to consumers as well. So yes, everyone in Texas pay taxes to support the state university system.

I only speak for my own state. We have no income tax for lower income people, other than city tax, which doesn’t go to universities. Sales tax is not assessed on the majority of essential goods like food so it is not regressive. (We do charge sales tax on soda.)

In any case, I don’t think government should be running universities in the first place. That’s my political take.

[dontperish]

God hates those who do and keep sin ...

Psalm 5:5-6 KJVS
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. [6] Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

God's love is shown at the stake in Christs death but outside of being in Him via the gospel ...you get God's hate and wrath.

Look up that word hate ....

It means utterly a enemy to hate!

God's true people will hate all sin vs living in it via worldliness and false doctrines and over looking sin to be united to any false way. God hates the false way too Psalm 119:104

It's called the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth for a reason.

Repent of all sin or perish ...