Breaking Laws / Defying the Orders of Governers and Law Enforcement

[Ernie]

Other than those other elements of heresy, I see similarities between Muenster and some parts of the "God & Country' people in our current world situation, both here in the States, and in various other countries around the world.

[Ernie]

Catholic mothers and fathers; lords and ladies; children; even their pets were tortured, crushed under stones, hung, burned, and shot. It seems that demons of cruelty thrive in those places where hatred and bigotry prevail.

The difference is that Catholics returned the same treatment to others. The Swiss Brethren and Mennonites in Holland who all fellowshipped together did not return the same treatment to others that they received.

Interesting. What of the Muensterites?

Neto said it well. What Anabaptists have been known for the last 500 years is not what the Muensterites were known for. Anabaptists have been known for the things that Muensterites were not known for, even though people called Muensterites, Anabaptists. The Swiss Brethren and Mennonites in Holland who all fellowshipped together spoke out against the Muensterites and were very sad about how the Muensterites blackened the reputation of the church.

Any Catholics who experienced persecution and did not condone the same actions toward others but rather prayed for their tormenters can rightfully be called Christian martyrs. The rest were simply terrorists who got killed by other terrorists. The same is true for anybody that went by the name Protestant, Orthodox, or Anabaptist.

The official Catholic church persecuted Christians for at least 1500 years and did not speak out against persecution of other people until 2000.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/ ... m.religion

I don't hold grudges against those who persecuted Anabaptists. I am just recognizing what happened.

[MaxPC]

Interesting. What of the Muensterites?
As I said, demons of cruelty thrive in those places where hatred and bigotry prevail. Revenge is one of those demons. Another demon is grudge holding; and another is the “they did it to us first”. Can we as Christians learn from this horrible history and do better than to repeat it? I think we can.

Muenster. I think that this case was not so much generated by hatred & bigotry as it was misguided eschatology and perhaps some desperation. And they were opposed by both Catholicism and by those 'anabaptists' who not only held to baptism upon personal repentance & faith, but also held to non-use of violence, including that of the State. Menno Simons himself, then still a Catholic priest, preached against their teaching. It was a time of cultural and religious upheaval. There are usually charlatans "ready in the wings' to take advantage of religious fervor, and we do not have any 'life testimonies' to refer to, to know if John of Leiden was one of those, or one who had started out on the right path, and lost his way, when he lost sight of the Narrow Way.

It was misguided in much the same way as the Reformers, and the Catholics as well, those who held to the idea of a unified Church & State, with the State supporting the Church. Then they were also seriously deceived and perverted in other doctrines as well, going beyond that of any other group involved in the battles that followed. Other than those other elements of heresy, I see similarities between Muenster and some parts of the "God & Country' people in our current world situation, both here in the States, and in various other countries around the world.

The Body of Christ, the Congregation of God, is, as you suggest, called to something completely different. I also hope and pray that we will "do better". (This was one of the things that really drew me into the Hippie Jesus People movement, fed by the enthusiasm of every youth, the desire to "change the world", the thinking that "we are the generation who will make a difference". Did we? Well, some of these same things seen in Muenster, although in different forms and to a lesser degree, crept into the movement. Leaders who took advantage of their followers, financially and also morally. 'Doctrines' not carefully proven or grounded in Scripture. And, some Eastern Religion as well.)

Spot on, Neto. If anything, upheaval is a mild description for that time 500 years ago. Mixing of political and national identities with churches creates a competitive cycle in which no one wins and the Body of Christ suffers. Only grudges, hatred and violent bigotries result.

We are also seeing upheavals today. Do we do as our forebears did? Or do we try to do better in following Christ’s example, in building up the kingdom in each other and supporting each others’ efforts to be faithful followers of Christ-as opposed to tearing down each other?

I must confess that the word “fervor” has a negative connotation for me. I associate it with persecutions and younger adults seeking to win a war, a competition or other situation in which emotions run high and goodly common sense does not. That is merely my experience. YMMV.

[Neto]

Interesting. What of the Muensterites?
....

Muenster. .... It was a time of cultural and religious upheaval. There are usually charlatans "ready in the wings' to take advantage of religious fervor, and we do not have any 'life testimonies' to refer to, to know if John of Leiden was one of those, or one who had started out on the right path, and lost his way, when he lost sight of the Narrow Way.
....

....
I must confess that the word “fervor” has a negative connotation for me. I associate it with persecutions and younger adults seeking to win a war, a competition or other situation in which emotions run high and goodly common sense does not. That is merely my experience. YMMV.

re: fervor
I hadn't thought of it that way, was thinking 'enthusiasm', and maybe an element of the lack of careful direction. Thinking about it now, it must be from a Latin word, since Portuguese has the verb 'ferver', meaning 'to boil'. So yeah, maybe there is an element of 'out of control enthusiasm' in the word fervor.