Christian nationalism: the state of the debate

[Josh]

This isn’t a church service, though. It seems much akin to someone getting worked up because we have allowed other people to use our church hall for weddings and funerals, and at such events, there were once American flags displayed because the deceased was a veteran. (We no longer host funerals unless our church is the one officiating.)

If one wants to get into the details of an “idolatrous” etc church that is a worthy pursuit - yet most of the thrust of MennoNet is complaining that we plain people aren’t inclusive enough, are “Pharisees”, expect everyone to follow our practices, etc. - so which is it? Do you want us condemning display of flags in churches (including pride flags), rock concert style “worship”, the idolatry of having highly paid church officials and preachers, expensive church buildings, or not?

[ken_sylvania]

This isn’t a church service, though. It seems much akin to someone getting worked up because we have allowed other people to use our church hall for weddings and funerals, and at such events, there were once American flags displayed because the deceased was a veteran. (We no longer host funerals unless our church is the one officiating.)

I don't see any similarity at all.

[Ken]

Ken seems to think I’m actively doing something against the Episcopalians or whomever. All I’ve done is say that they are openly accepting sin and are a false church.

I’ve also spoken out a lot against “rock concert” style church, but upon further investigation this isn’t even a church service. It’s just a men’s retreat.

and

This isn’t a church service, though. It seems much akin to someone getting worked up because we have allowed other people to use our church hall for weddings and funerals, and at such events, there were once American flags displayed because the deceased was a veteran. (We no longer host funerals unless our church is the one officiating.)

There are people here who claim not to understand what is meant by the term "Christian Nationalism"

I simply presented the above spectacle as one example of what the term means. And this is what you end up with when you tear down the line between church and state (or the two kingdoms as the case may be) and confuse yourself about the difference between the two.

The above is a particularly crass example. Call it a "men's retreat" if you want. But they had sermons and "call to Jesus" and all of that. It was put on and sponsored by the church so it was an actual church event. But I don't find the more sophisticated manifestations of the phenomenon to be any less problematic.

[Ken]

If one wants to get into the details of an “idolatrous” etc church that is a worthy pursuit - yet most of the thrust of MennoNet is complaining that we plain people aren’t inclusive enough, are “Pharisees”, expect everyone to follow our practices, etc. - so which is it? Do you want us condemning display of flags in churches (including pride flags), rock concert style “worship”, the idolatry of having highly paid church officials and preachers, expensive church buildings, or not?

I don't *want* you to do anything Josh. And I'm not complaining about or condemning anything you do.

This is a thread about "Christian Nationalism" and I simply posted the above spectacle as an example of what that term actually means in an American context. This is what happens when you conflate the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man and get confused about the difference. It is frankly the modern version of this: (and it is probably no coincidence that crusader art and iconography is seeing a revival within certain circles in this country).

[Josh]

“Christian nationalism” is a bogeyman that seems to mostly exist in your own mind and perhaps the minds of other liberals.

As far as churches displaying flags, virtually all of them do including liberal ones. Conservative Anabaptists don’t. I’m not quite sure I’m ready to declare a “false church” every church that displays a flag, but why don’t I get warmed up?

Any church that bears a pride flag is a false church and is preaching a different gospel that has no saving power.

How’s that, Ken?

[Ken]

“Christian nationalism” is a bogeyman that seems to mostly exist in your own mind and perhaps the minds of other liberals.

As far as churches displaying flags, virtually all of them do including liberal ones. Conservative Anabaptists don’t. I’m not quite sure I’m ready to declare a “false church” every church that displays a flag, but why don’t I get warmed up?

Any church that bears a pride flag is a false church and is preaching a different gospel that has no saving power.

How’s that, Ken?

Oh, it is real. And it isn't about flags in churches.

Imagine if you will, a continuum.

On the one end of the continuum you have historic Anabaptism as reflected by Menno Simons and traditional Anabaptist churches like the Amish and other conservative Anabaptists who adhere to a strict separation between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Man.

At the other end of the continuum you have theocracy of the sort practiced in the middle ages when the church and state were one and the same and we spoke about things like "Christendom" and went on religious crusades. And European "holy wars" continued on up into the 17 century with the Thirty Years War between Catholic and Protestant states.

The United States was founded as a secular nation in opposition to all of that.

"Christian Nationalism" as it manifests itself today is really nothing more than a movement to push the nation back along that continuum, AWAY from a Two Kingdom, Separation of Church and State understanding and TOWARDS the old One Kingdom notion of "Christendom" except with the United States being the new Christian promised land where God has chosen to work his will through America and its institutions. And where Americans are his "chosen people."

If you think this isn't happening you are naïve or not paying attention. Or maybe you are fine with it in which case I would simply point out that it is the theological polar opposite of Anabaptism.

[temporal1]

- If I am willing to say 'Welcoming and Affirming' churches are wrong and their stance is an embrace of sin; I should say the same about churches that host displays of blatant militarism and make an idol of the nation.

i agree with your principle.
i see it as disingenuous to add a bunch of offensive and accusatory pictures of (military-themed) gatherings to this forum, where i don’t believe one member has an interest or attends, but, conversely, there’s no shortage of members who allow, support, promote carnal sin, in churches+everywhere, if not indulging first-person. people literally vote for these things.

i see many more gaudy flags, banners, logos displayed than national flags (which have become something to apologize for).
i see this when traveling, esp on churches .. the PNW is a world epicenter for it. [my first-person observation.] it’s hard to find a PNW church that doesn’t sport rainbow flags. public schools+libraries, ditto.

there is no factual comparison. not if honesty is considered.
i agree with you, HK, there’s no inherent difference. presently, the scales are massively tipped to one side.

(in my view) the recent (i hope soon gone) BLM “movement” was a form of (bizarre) reverse-nationalism happily embraced by many Christians and churches .. in the interview below, Hotep Jesus describes the BLM (hoax) as a “front” for homosexual interests! - he makes a credible case:

Megyn Kelly / Hotep Jesus / How the Demise of Black Lives Matter Relates to Bud Light and Target, with Hotep Jesus / 8min

Description:
“Megyn Kelly is joined by Hotep Jesus, host of "The Grift Report," to discuss the collapse of Black Lives Matter,
the improper circulation of donation money within the organization,
how the "queer" agenda is intertwined with the BLM agenda, and more.”

i try to avoid Megyn Kelly, not a follower, i knew nothing of Hotep J. before viewing this video.

bio / “Bryan Sharpe aka Hotep Jesus”
https://en.everybodywiki.com/Bryan_Shar ... otep_Jesus

i believe there is egregious MONEY LAUNDERING going on right under everyone’s noses. vast sums. on the lib side.
i hope one day these hoaxes/rackets will be identified as money laundering and prosecuted.

[ken_sylvania]

“Christian nationalism” is a bogeyman that seems to mostly exist in your own mind and perhaps the minds of other liberals.

Maybe you should get out more Josh.

[Josh]

“Christian nationalism” is a bogeyman that seems to mostly exist in your own mind and perhaps the minds of other liberals.

Maybe you should get out more Josh.

I do, and I have yet to see it anywhere except conspiracy theory circles. None of the churches around me are doing this, and Ken’s video wasn’t even of a church.

I do see a lot of people flying flags today - but it is Memorial Day. I am not one of them.

And, Ken, this country was founded by Anglicans and at its founding had 3 state state churches. So your assertion above is incorrect.

[Ken]

“Christian nationalism” is a bogeyman that seems to mostly exist in your own mind and perhaps the minds of other liberals.

Maybe you should get out more Josh.

I do, and I have yet to see it anywhere except conspiracy theory circles. None of the churches around me are doing this, and Ken’s video wasn’t even of a church.

I do see a lot of people flying flags today - but it is Memorial Day. I am not one of them.

And, Ken, this country was founded by Anglicans and at its founding had 3 state state churches. So your assertion above is incorrect.

Yes, the American colonies were originally founded as religious colonies.

The American nation as reflected in the Constitution was founded as a secular nation with no state church. To the contrary. A state church is explicitly forbidden by the 1st Amendment.