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Robert wrote:

Do Mennonites and Anabaptists have something to teach the rest of the world about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ?

I am starting to doubt that of late. I think Anabaptist theology is strong, but Mennonites fall WAY short of living it. I think we need to face the hard questions and be HONEST about how we (do not) actually live them out.

Thanks for giving us the forum and the opportunity to challenge each other on those places where we do k\live them out.

Robert wrote:

Bootstrap wrote: Do Mennonites and Anabaptists have something to teach the rest of the world about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ?

I am starting to doubt that of late. I think Anabaptist theology is strong, but Mennonites fall WAY short of living it. I think we need to face the hard questions and be HONEST about how we (do not) actually live them out.

Two quick comments on this.

Instead of focusing on Anabaptists as a group, focus on individual Anabaptists.

Also, though I agree with you to a degree as I view Anabaptists on a group level, I still don't see anything better out there. It works better to focus on strong points than weak points.

Robert wrote:

Valerie, I don't think you did anything wrong, but I don't see any way we can realistically discuss every one of these disputes at the same time in any useful depth, and if we aren't even in agreement about whether we can trust the New Testament, I'm not sure how to have this set of discussions with John.

Some like to have a variety of topics. It can be interesting to some, while not to others. No problem with starting topics. Not everyone wants to go real deep either.

I don't set rules on MN, and you have every right to start the threads you did, but I wanted to say something from a higher level. Beyond the details of those threads, I think those controversies are in the wrong jungle, and I don't want to spend enormous amounts of my time in that jungle.

Then simply ignore and don't comment. I know it is hard at times to "walk away" but sometimes that is just best..

Amen. There's no rule that says we have to reply to every topic or every person.

Robert wrote:I am starting to doubt that of late. I think Anabaptist theology is strong, but Mennonites fall WAY short of living it. I think we need to face the hard questions and be HONEST about how we (do not) actually live them out.

lesterb wrote:Also, though I agree with you to a degree as I view Anabaptists on a group level, I still don't see anything better out there. It works better to focus on strong points than weak points.

Maybe a little of each?

I'd like to hear about people's ministries, what things they find to go out and actually help someone, and the struggles they have in those ministries. I am often reluctant to share what I am doing well because (1) it might sound like bragging (2) my world of ministry might seem quite foreign to others not doing that kind of thing and (3) I worry about professional critics knocking me down or accusing me of building ourselves up. I can be reluctant to share what I'm doing badly too, largely because of the professional critic issue.

Should I jump in the cold water and give it a try? Or would that be stupid? Or alienating? Or just not what this forum is about?

Hats Off wrote:

Robert wrote:

Do Mennonites and Anabaptists have something to teach the rest of the world about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ?

I am starting to doubt that of late. I think Anabaptist theology is strong, but Mennonites fall WAY short of living it. I think we need to face the hard questions and be HONEST about how we (do not) actually live them out.

Thanks for giving us the forum and the opportunity to challenge each other on those places where we do k\live them out.

X2.

Bootstrap wrote:

Robert wrote:I am starting to doubt that of late. I think Anabaptist theology is strong, but Mennonites fall WAY short of living it. I think we need to face the hard questions and be HONEST about how we (do not) actually live them out.

lesterb wrote:Also, though I agree with you to a degree as I view Anabaptists on a group level, I still don't see anything better out there. It works better to focus on strong points than weak points.

Maybe a little of each?

I'd like to hear about people's ministries, what things they find to go out and actually help someone, and the struggles they have in those ministries. I am often reluctant to share what I am doing well because (1) it might sound like bragging (2) my world of ministry might seem quite foreign to others not doing that kind of thing and (3) I worry about professional critics knocking me down or accusing me of building ourselves up. I can be reluctant to share what I'm doing badly too, largely because of the professional critic issue.

Should I jump in the cold water and give it a try? Or would that be stupid? Or alienating? Or just not what this forum is about?

Put it this way. I view the human level of the church like a package. I have seem people reject the package because of a few almost minor items, then accept a package that seems a lot worse, but which they agree with on those minor details. To me that doesn't make sense. If you find a group that seems to be producing what you are after, why not accept the package? Even if you have to make a few changes in personal opinion or conviction.

lesterb wrote:

Bootstrap wrote:I'd like to hear about people's ministries, what things they find to go out and actually help someone, and the struggles they have in those ministries. I am often reluctant to share what I am doing well because (1) it might sound like bragging (2) my world of ministry might seem quite foreign to others not doing that kind of thing and (3) I worry about professional critics knocking me down or accusing me of building ourselves up. I can be reluctant to share what I'm doing badly too, largely because of the professional critic issue.

Should I jump in the cold water and give it a try? Or would that be stupid? Or alienating? Or just not what this forum is about?

Put it this way. I view the human level of the church like a package. I have seem people reject the package because of a few almost minor items, then accept a package that seems a lot worse, but which they agree with on those minor details. To me that doesn't make sense. If you find a group that seems to be producing what you are after, why not accept the package? Even if you have to make a few changes in personal opinion or conviction.

I was talking about MN in what I said, asking whether I should share more.

I don't know if you were suggesting I treat MN like an imperfect church, or if you thought I was talking about something else. How did you intend that?

I have lots of friends who aren't Christians, friends who believe in just the Old Testament, friends who just believe in a little bit of the New Testament, and friends who don't affirm Paul.

But there are limits to how much I want to talk to them about spiritual matters. I like to talk to them about scholarship. But I'm not really interested in them laying out and telling me what lifestyle I need to live, and I'm really not interested in them telling me exactly how I need to obey Jesus and commanding me to stop doing what I do because "I am obeying a man" because I do affirm Paul's epistles as scripture.

I guess I don't like fundamentalist-evangelical thinking combined with throwing out a lot of the books of the Bible. I already don't really like fundamentalist-evangelicalism, but I can get along well with people who are, because we do have a foundation of the Bible. When the Bible is gone... well, I don't feel like we are even talking about the same Jesus anymore.

Bootstrap wrote:

lesterb wrote:

Bootstrap wrote:I'd like to hear about people's ministries, what things they find to go out and actually help someone, and the struggles they have in those ministries. I am often reluctant to share what I am doing well because (1) it might sound like bragging (2) my world of ministry might seem quite foreign to others not doing that kind of thing and (3) I worry about professional critics knocking me down or accusing me of building ourselves up. I can be reluctant to share what I'm doing badly too, largely because of the professional critic issue.

Should I jump in the cold water and give it a try? Or would that be stupid? Or alienating? Or just not what this forum is about?

Put it this way. I view the human level of the church like a package. I have seem people reject the package because of a few almost minor items, then accept a package that seems a lot worse, but which they agree with on those minor details. To me that doesn't make sense. If you find a group that seems to be producing what you are after, why not accept the package? Even if you have to make a few changes in personal opinion or conviction.

I was talking about MN in what I said, asking whether I should share more.

I don't know if you were suggesting I treat MN like an imperfect church, or if you thought I was talking about something else. How did you intend that?

No, I was in too much of a hurry, and it shows. I was actually clarifying part of my earlier Post, which went like this...

lesterb wrote:Also, though I agree with you to a degree as I view Anabaptists on a group level, I still don't see anything better out there. It works better to focus on strong points than weak points.

I thought you included that quote in your post, but I see you didn't.

Let me think about your question a bit more. In a sense, this is what I did [see highlighted] when I started my thread on Ecclesiastes, though I framed it in the terms of inviting help and ideas. I did get some really helpful input from that. That might be one way to enter this and not seem egotistical about it.

lesterb wrote:Let me think about your question a bit more. In a sense, this is what I did [see highlighted] when I started my thread on Ecclesiastes, though I framed it in the terms of inviting help and ideas. I did get some really helpful input from that. That might be one way to enter this and not seem egotistical about it.

That was a great thread. And if you publish that book, I'd love to read it ...