Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

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Bootstrap
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Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Bootstrap »

This morning, I saw a bunch of threads that each ask which position is the right one on something churches disagree about. One of these threads had the title Whose idea, God's or Man's?

Let me step back 1000 feet. God's idea is to focus on the things he clearly told us and emphasized in the New Testament. Most of that is not hidden in obscure Greek or church history. And we aren't doing well enough at that. Isn't that the more important problem?

I think it's man's idea to argue endlessly about whose religious practice is the right one, and we can get so lost in this that we do not have time and energy to build communities of love, serve other people, examine our own lives before God, etc. As though some religious practice or theological doctrine or some other footnote is the thing that shows that my religion or my group is the true one. Jesus tells us they will know we are Christians by our love. Love is hard. We need to really work at loving God, each other, and our neighbor. If we get that right, by God's grace, it will be a witness in a way that none of these theological disputes can ever match.

This reminds me of something Stephen Covey wrote:
You can quickly grasp the important difference between the two if you envision a group of producers cutting their way through the jungle with machetes. They’re the producers, the problem solvers. They’re cutting through the undergrowth, clearing it out.

The managers are behind them, sharpening their machetes, writing policy and procedure manuals, holding muscle development programs, bringing in improved technologies and setting up working schedules and compensation programs for machete wielders.

The leader is the one who climbs the tallest tree, surveys the entire situation, and yells, “Wrong jungle!”
Are we spending too much time and effort writing detailed policy and procedure manuals for the wrong jungle? Is this kind of foolish disputation God's idea?
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Hats Off
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Hats Off »

Bootstrap wrote:
Are we spending too much time and effort writing detailed policy and procedure manuals for the wrong jungle? Is this kind of foolish disputation God's idea?
1) yes definitely!
2) definitely not.

The Rabbis of many years ago would apparently farm during the summer and then spend the winter building a hedge around the Torah, by defining exactly what each word of a particular passage might mean. They could spend all winter on one very small passage, bringing up all possible explanations, whether logical or not. The purpose was to make sure that no one accidentally broke the Law through ignorance.

We seem to continue this practise, building a wall around the hedge around the initial thing we were trying to protect. We get to the point where the wall becomes more important in our discussion/arguments; it is now the wall that we are trying to protect. That is one of my frustrations with too much theology.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Bootstrap »

Hats Off wrote:The Rabbis of many years ago would apparently farm during the summer and then spend the winter building a hedge around the Torah, by defining exactly what each word of a particular passage might mean. They could spend all winter on one very small passage, bringing up all possible explanations, whether logical or not. The purpose was to make sure that no one accidentally broke the Law through ignorance.

We seem to continue this practise, building a wall around the hedge around the initial thing we were trying to protect. We get to the point where the wall becomes more important in our discussion/arguments; it is now the wall that we are trying to protect. That is one of my frustrations with too much theology.
I agree. And sometimes "too much religion" can be the same problem.

Suppose we wanted to start a series of threads that would help us move the discussion to the right jungle. What should those threads focus on?

How hard it is to actually love God, our spouse and family, our church, our neighbor, and how we can grow in these things? What we need to get ourselves moving and serving our neighbor? Why we are all in denial about our own hatred and super-sensitive to anything that might feel like someone else doesn't like us, and what we need to do to walk in truth and love with each other? Fighting sin in our own lives? How to walk strongly in what we believe without writing off other Christians who believe differently?

Can we nominate some threads and start them?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Bootstrap »

Dan has identified the jungle most Mennonites want to walk in.

What's hard about these things? What do we need help growing in? Where are we failing to be as good as we would like, what do we struggle with? Would these be good candidates for new threads?
Dan Z wrote:Anyway, we tend to harp on our distinctions, but I think the common ground may surprise some of those who haven't circulated widely...across the Anabaptist spectrum I've seen many similarities and common themes. Here are some:
  • Communion & (often) Feet-Washing together - practiced only a few times a year, approached soberly and often with an associated call to a time of preparation.
    Two-Kingdom Theology - this takes various forms of course, and various degrees of separation, but it is present throughout, including a near-universal distance from the patriotism and civil religion that is common in many other traditions.
    Christocentrism - A special focus on the importance of the teachings and example of Christ as Lord (especially the Sermon on the Mount) and secondarily the New Testament church.
    Discipleship - Anabaptists are people of action, more interested in how faith is lived out.
    Community - Or as Simon Schrock would call it, "one-anothering" - An emphasis on mutual aid, the gathered church, sharing of time and resources in moments of need, group discernment, regular group fellowship meals & events.
    Disaster Relief & Humanitarian Sharing - Whether through MCC, MDS, CAM or whatever, Anabaptists across the spectrum are strongly inclined to help those in need both in the US and abroad, through poverty or disaster, giving both time and treasure.
    Servant Leadership - Humble and soft-spoken leaders are the norm, addressed by first name, often chosen from the immediate faith community. Plural part-time pastoral leadership is common as well.
    Simplicity - Whether in the family garden or church-house decor, Anabaptists tend to value simplicity of life and behavior.
    Suffering/Surrenderedness - Perhaps it is the shared history of the Martyrs Mirror (or the Hutterian Chronicles), but the idea that suffering and personal sacrifice is to be expected as an honorable part of the Christian experience.
    Peace/Non-Resistance - Across the spectrum there is the general understanding that Christ is the Prince of Peace, and he calls his followers to enemy love and cheek turning.
    Voluntary Service - This may have had it roots in the alternate service during war time, but it is still an expectation across the Anabaptist spectrum that young people give some of their time to Christian service, often in a cross-cultural setting.
    Vocal Music - Music is important in the Anabaptist tradition especially the focus on vocal (a-capella) singing, harmonizing as a gathered church.
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Hats Off
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Hats Off »

I am too busy with taxation work to have time to initiate any threads or even put much thought into the current ones. Perhaps this summer. There are enough things I would like to talk about; things I would like to reason through. One of those areas I have been really struggling with and trying to help younger members with is church leadership.
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:This morning, I saw a bunch of threads that each ask which position is the right one on something churches disagree about. One of these threads had the title Whose idea, God's or Man's?

Let me step back 1000 feet. God's idea is to focus on the things he clearly told us and emphasized in the New Testament. Most of that is not hidden in obscure Greek or church history. And we aren't doing well enough at that. Isn't that the more important problem?

I think it's man's idea to argue endlessly about whose religious practice is the right one, and we can get so lost in this that we do not have time and energy to build communities of love, serve other people, examine our own lives before God, etc. As though some religious practice or theological doctrine or some other footnote is the thing that shows that my religion or my group is the true one. Jesus tells us they will know we are Christians by our love. Love is hard. We need to really work at loving God, each other, and our neighbor. If we get that right, by God's grace, it will be a witness in a way that none of these theological disputes can ever match.

This reminds me of something Stephen Covey wrote:
You can quickly grasp the important difference between the two if you envision a group of producers cutting their way through the jungle with machetes. They’re the producers, the problem solvers. They’re cutting through the undergrowth, clearing it out.

The managers are behind them, sharpening their machetes, writing policy and procedure manuals, holding muscle development programs, bringing in improved technologies and setting up working schedules and compensation programs for machete wielders.

The leader is the one who climbs the tallest tree, surveys the entire situation, and yells, “Wrong jungle!”
Are we spending too much time and effort writing detailed policy and procedure manuals for the wrong jungle? Is this kind of foolish disputation God's idea?
Boot- I'm sorry if you didn't understand why I was posting the particular threads- every one of them had to do with things being questioned, that Anabaptists indeed DO practice- yet there were implications that they are of pagan origin- I think that we should be able to find the origins of things like Easter Celebrations, Christmas Celebration, Ascension Day observance, etc- every thread was an answer to the questions John was asking- he is not the only one implying we are pagan for doing these things & I think that Christians should know the history- maybe it's just me, but when I'm told I'm doing something pagan, I need to find out about it. Or being disobedient by going to Church on Sunday instead of Saturday- or being told not to listen to Apostle Paul- these things, imo, since Anabaptists clearly do all of these things- isn't necessarily in the wrong jungle to at least explore the origination for them- maybe it just helps me- sorry
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Bootstrap
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie, I don't think you did anything wrong, but I don't see any way we can realistically discuss every one of these disputes at the same time in any useful depth, and if we aren't even in agreement about whether we can trust the New Testament, I'm not sure how to have this set of discussions with John. We have had discussions of every one of these issues on MennoDiscuss, and I guess I didn't want a repeat.

I don't set rules on MN, and you have every right to start the threads you did, but I wanted to say something from a higher level. Beyond the details of those threads, I think those controversies are in the wrong jungle, and I don't want to spend enormous amounts of my time in that jungle.

I agree with you that the 16 pages on global warming are another foolish controversy. And some days it feels like foolish controversy is all we do. It's not where I want to spend my time and effort.

Here's the jungle I want to be in:
Bootstrap wrote:Let me step back 1000 feet. God's idea is to focus on the things he clearly told us and emphasized in the New Testament. Most of that is not hidden in obscure Greek or church history. And we aren't doing well enough at that. Isn't that the more important problem?

I think it's man's idea to argue endlessly about whose religious practice is the right one, and we can get so lost in this that we do not have time and energy to build communities of love, serve other people, examine our own lives before God, etc. As though some religious practice or theological doctrine or some other footnote is the thing that shows that my religion or my group is the true one. Jesus tells us they will know we are Christians by our love. Love is hard. We need to really work at loving God, each other, and our neighbor. If we get that right, by God's grace, it will be a witness in a way that none of these theological disputes can ever match.
One of the problems we have on MN is that we aren't spending enough time discussing the things that matter most and developing a compelling story of our own. Instead, we spend an awful lot of time and effort discussing everyone else's foolish controversies - global warming is one of them.

Do Mennonites and Anabaptists have something to teach the rest of the world about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ? If so, how are we working those things out in our own lives and communities? What exactly is our message? If we don't do a better job of addressing these things, MN becomes an empty shell to fill with everyone's foolish controversies, clickbait that keeps everyone riled up without leading us in the right direction.
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote: The Rabbis of many years ago would apparently farm during the summer and then spend the winter building a hedge around the Torah, by defining exactly what each word of a particular passage might mean. They could spend all winter on one very small passage, bringing up all possible explanations, whether logical or not. The purpose was to make sure that no one accidentally broke the Law through ignorance.

We seem to continue this practise, building a wall around the hedge around the initial thing we were trying to protect. We get to the point where the wall becomes more important in our discussion/arguments; it is now the wall that we are trying to protect. That is one of my frustrations with too much theology.
Mine as well. Also, I've participated in too many theological discussions in which one or several individuals become entrenched in their views; they then want to be the only expert voice in the matter and proceed to to disect and critique everyone else. At that point they are no longer open to authentic listening and no one else wants to continue the discussion with them. Sad.
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Also, I've participated in too many theological discussions in which one or several individuals become entrenched in their views; they then want to be the only expert voice in the matter and proceed to to disect and critique everyone else.
In many cases, a thread starts out by proclaiming what the right view and implying strongly that the person posting is the expert, the better person, whatever. The thread is largely about what the person wants to project about themselves, less about the topic itself. Or it is a debate held as a contest to see who can win. I agree with you - there's not much value in any thread that is really about who the expert is. Real experts are more interested in the subject matter than in impressing people with their own expertise.
MaxPC wrote:At that point they are no longer open to authentic listening and no one else wants to continue the discussion with them. Sad.
Perhaps the best way to do authentic listening is to really respond to what people are saying, taking it into consideration, and learning over time. In some threads, it's almost as though a given participant never absorbs what other people are saying at all, never quite understand what they have said. I agree that more authentic listening and responding is important. Perhaps more discussion and less debate.

How else can we do better at this?

And how do we do authentic listening without giving up discernment and caring about what is true? That question may be at the heart of finding the right jungle.

Maybe asking more questions to make sure we have understood the other person? Maybe being clearer when we see things we appreciate in what someone else has said? Maybe being very clear about what we are learning from other people's posts? Maybe just assuming that not everything we write is clear or correct, and being very receptive when people disagree or ask questions?
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Re: Foolish controversies. Wrong jungle.

Post by Robert »

Bootstrap wrote:Valerie, I don't think you did anything wrong, but I don't see any way we can realistically discuss every one of these disputes at the same time in any useful depth, and if we aren't even in agreement about whether we can trust the New Testament, I'm not sure how to have this set of discussions with John.
Some like to have a variety of topics. It can be interesting to some, while not to others. No problem with starting topics. Not everyone wants to go real deep either.

I don't set rules on MN, and you have every right to start the threads you did, but I wanted to say something from a higher level. Beyond the details of those threads, I think those controversies are in the wrong jungle, and I don't want to spend enormous amounts of my time in that jungle.
Then simply ignore and don't comment. I know it is hard at times to "walk away" but sometimes that is just best.
I agree with you that the 16 pages on global warming are another foolish controversy. And some days it feels like foolish controversy is all we do. It's not where I want to spend my time and effort.
Some call it fun. :lol:
Do Mennonites and Anabaptists have something to teach the rest of the world about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ?
I am starting to doubt that of late. I think Anabaptist theology is strong, but Mennonites fall WAY short of living it. I think we need to face the hard questions and be HONEST about how we (do not) actually live them out.
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