Bootstrap wrote:Aaron wrote:
Check facts carefully - Test, Test, Test, question , question, question. This is necessary as written in Scripture.
When the resources someone uses are wood , hay, or stubble, what is the end result?
Or if any man builds on quicksand, or even on solid dirt, instead of bedrock, will his house stand when the storm comes?
Be more specific now, in this thread or a new one, either way. (I think I will go ahead and start a new thread to follow up on this /these questions of yours specifically .... ) going to do that now, God WIlling...
I agree with what you say. If you look at the links I gave you, they point to Scripture and very early writings of the church. That might give you some of the specific you are asking for. If you read through this entire thread, you will see that others have given these specifics too.
There have been a lot of very good comments, so I will post this information for Aaron's benefit - but you may respond if you care to do so. And I hope I do not offend anyone, just provide an opposing position for study purposes:
Aaron,
Here are the some of the things that the Sunday church have a hard time answering:
1. God never told us to worship on Sunday. The Sabbath is the day of the holy convocation. Leviticus 23:3. A "holy convocation" is when we are to meet together. God did not choose another day, like Sunday, to worship. Christ never worshiped on Sunday, that I can find in the Bible. You can't worship on Sunday and keep Sabbath too, and be acceptable to God, as God said you shall not add to, or diminish what God has said. Deuteronomy 4:2 God chose His Days for His Holy Convocations, He did not approve some other day chosen by man.
2. The Catholic church brags that they have changed the sabbath from the 7th Day to the 1st Day, as shown in the quotes I provided from Wikipedia. They claim that every Protestant church recognizes the power of the Catholic church to be superior to scripture by worshiping on Sunday, which is the day the Catholic Church has chosen. The Sunday church cannot deny this statement. The evidence is clear.
3. I appreciate Bootstrap's kind words, and his post:
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 497#p12664 - but I believe it is incorrect. It uses circular reasoning to say that since people several hundred years after Christ called Sunday the "Lord's Day", then John in Rev 1:10 was also referring to Sunday as "the Lord's day". A later event cannot change an earlier event. When the Apostle John lived, Christians met on Sabbath, not Sunday.
Mark 2:28 clearly defeats this argument that Sunday is the Lord's Day as Christ clearly tells us that the Sabbath is the Lord's day.
I also believe that Acts 20:7 and 1st Cor 16:2, translated as "the first
day of the week", is being used incorrectly. If you will look in your KJV Bible, you will see the word "day" in italics, as this word has been added. The actual words are "first of weeks", or "first of sabbaths". The words "first
day of the week" here is the same words used in Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, John 20:19 - which is the "first day of the week" when Sunday churches believe that Christ was resurrected.
The only problem is, Christ was not resurrected on Sunday. Mark, Luke, and John do not speak of the actual resurrection, just an empty tomb that was found. Only Matthew speaks of the resurrection.
Here is the problem:
Christ spent 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb: Matthew 12:40. The Sunday Church cannot answer this with "Friday night to Sunday morning" as that is not 3 full days and nights.
A better answer is that Passover (the 14th day of the month) fell on a Wednesday, and Christ was put into the tomb Wednesday at sunset, as Thursday (the 15th day of the month) was a "high day" sabbath, (John 19:31), being the first day of unleavened bread. Lev 23:6-7. Christ rested 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb until Saturday evening, just before sundown, as the word "dawn" in Matthew 28:1, or "epiphosko" means "twilight". This same word "epiphosko" is translated as "drew on" in Luke 23:54 - and clearly speaks of the twilight before the end of the day. Remember that the Hebrew day ended at dusk, and the next day began as night fell.
From this, we know that, according to Matthew 28:1, Christ was resurrected on Saturday evening, about 5:30 pm. This totally blows the Sunday church out of the water. Why meet on Sunday, if Christ arose on the Sabbath?
Here is another problem:
I believe the term "first
day of the week" is a time of year, not a day of the week. The Feast of First Fruits was a yearly sabbath, that really did happen on Sunday, or the "morrow after the sabbath". Leviticus 23:11. This is when Christ, as the first fruits from the dead (1 Cor 15:20) was presented to God as a perfect offering, as He said "Touch me not" for He had not yet ascended John 20:17, but by verse 27, they were able to touch Him.
The "first of weeks" was the first Sunday after Passover. It only happened one time a year, and always fell before Pentecost. Likewise, Acts 20:7 occurs just before Pentecost (Acts 20:16) and 1 Cor 16:2 occurs just before Pentecost (1 Cor 16:8). That cannot be a coincidence. It is a yearly, not weekly.
In 1 Cor 16:2, Paul is taking up a contribution for the poor as he is traveling to Jerusalem for Pentecost. There are 7 weeks, or "sabbaths" between Passover and Pentecost. Leviticus 23:15-16. Counting the "morrow after the sabbath" these 7 weeks, plus one day, makes 50 days, and "pente" means 50, while "cost" means days. These 7 weeks are called the "feast of weeks", or a "week of weeks". And Deuteronomy 16:9-11 tells us that at the end of 7 weeks, or a "week of weeks", we are to give a freewill offering to the poor "in the place where the LORD God has chosen to put His name there" - which is Jerusalem. This is why Paul was taking up a contribution in 1 Cor 16:2 to take to Jerusalem for the poor - and has nothing to do with passing a plate around the room every Sunday. Paul was providing the freewill offering of Deuteronomy 16:9-11, not taking up money for a church.
The "first
day of the week" is really the "first of sabbaths" and is how they counted the weeks until Pentecost. Luke 6:1 corroborates this by talking about the 2nd week of these 7 weeks. They counted each of these 7 weeks, as being special weeks. This is what the "first of weeks", or "first
day of the week" really means.
And even if Paul was eating bread or taking up money on the "first day of the week", Paul did not say that he and his friends changed the Sabbath to Sunday - because Paul does not have the authority to do this. In fact, Paul was meeting with the Christians on the Sabbath: Acts 16:13. This account with Lydia in Acts 16 - where Christians were praying and baptizing - should hold "more water" for Sabbath Keeping than Paul eating some bread or taking donations on a Sunday. Acts 16:13 looks a lot more like "worship" than Acts 20:7, or 1 Cor 16:2.
Even the "Gentiles" met on the sabbath day: Acts 13:42, 44. Yet these verses are ignored, and Paul's activities with his traveling companions are held very high.
And the verses in Acts 15:20 that the Gentiles should only follow 4 things - 3 of which are dietary:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
This is ludicrous. Only four? No way.
Acts 15:20 describes the main four things that the Gentiles are having trouble with, as some false teachers were telling the Gentiles that you could eat meat offered to idols if no one saw you do it, or that fornication was acceptable if your wife was an unbeliever and left you, then you were not under bondage and could remarry - as well as telling them that the dietary laws excluding blood and things strangled had been "done away" under Christ. These were the doctrinal errors that someone was spreading among the Gentiles. The rest of the Law was well known to the Gentiles and they had no problem with it.
Because the next verse in Acts 15 tells us that the Gentiles knew the Law of God, since it was taught every Sabbath Day.
(21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
The Gentiles knew the Law. And they listened to it every Sabbath day - not Sunday.
Just like we read in Acts 13:42, 44:
(42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
In the first century, everyone that followed God worshiped on Sunday. But 150 years later, it was a different story.
It is very hard to find "Sunday worship" in the 1st century church, but it easy to find in history.
Sunday was the day of the Sun.
Sunday was the day of Mithras was worshiped. The worship of Mithras was the State Religion of Rome.
The Roman emperors minted their money with the words "Sol Invictus Comite", which means they were committed to Mithras "the unconquerable sun god."
The male leaders of Mithras were called "Fathers", and the female leaders were called "Mothers". The supreme leader of the Mithras church was called "Pontifex Maximus", and was the Roman Emperor.
Mithras was born on December 25th, because this is when the days were getting longer and the Sun was being "re-born" and growing stronger. Mithras had a halo around his head, or sun disk.
The followers of Mithras had a ritual meal with bread and a cup. I would say more, but this is enough to make a point.
The most important thing that made the followers of Mithras acceptable to Rome is that they met on the "Venerable Day of the Sun", just as Constantine had written in his edict.
If you abandoned the 4th Commandment about keeping the Sabbath holy, Rome would not persecute you. That is why Justin Martyr and so many others met on Sunday. And this is why Rome persecuted the Christians that met on Sabbath, as they did not follow the State religion.
Thanks for the discussion, and I am sure we will agree to disagree.
"He replaced the teachings of Christ with his own opinions, and gave us a religion based on the doctrines of men."
