Observing the Sabbath

General Christian Theology
User avatar
JohnHurt
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:04 pm
Location: Buffalo Valley, TN
Affiliation: Primitive Christian
Contact:

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by JohnHurt »

Bootstrap wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:This is a forum for Anabaptists. Many Anabaptists have kept the Sabbath.
All Anabaptists accept the entire New Testament. The relationship between the Old Testament and New Testament really had to be worked out after Jesus rose again and the believers received the Holy Spirit. Galatians is really one of the clearest guides on this, especially when read together with Acts 15.
Galatians and Acts 15 are both about Circumcision, and do not mention changing the Sabbath to Sunday, or abrogating the Sabbath as the 4th Commandment. I searched the Book of Galatians, and did not find a reference to the sabbath day, please correct me if I am wrong.
Bootstrap wrote:Like Adam, I don't have a problem with those who choose to celebrate the Jewish Sabbath. I find it a bit strange to keep the Jewish feasts but not Easter - I assume that you believe that Jesus died and rose again?
Christ died on Passover, and was raised "three days and three nights later". Matt 12:40 Paul is correct that Christ is the first fruits from the dead, and I believe He was raised on the morrow after the Sabbath after Passover. Lev 23:10
Easter is man-made, and different, and relies upon the First Council of Nicaea, and is commonly called "Computus". Here is where you can learn more about how Easter is calculated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus

It may appear to split hairs between Easter and First Fruits, and many times they do fall on the same day. But it is a question of who has the authority to set these dates.

Bootstrap wrote: But I find it especially strange that you keep asking us "by what authority" we act like orthodox Christians. The Jewish authorities asked Jesus "by what authority" at least several times, and sometimes this seems to rhyme. For instance:
And they came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, and they said to him, “By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do them?” Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. Was the baptism of John from heaven or from man? Answer me.” And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ But shall we say, ‘From man’?”—they were afraid of the people, for they all held that John really was a prophet. So they answered Jesus, “We do not know.” And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
So let me try to imitate Jesus here. Was the teaching of Paul from heaven or from man? What about the teaching of the rest of the New Testament? Because the nub of the question is that we have very different beliefs about where this authority comes from. We also have very different beliefs about what the Bible is and the relationship between New Testament believers and the Old Testament.
I hold the teachings of Christ to be superior to all others. If Christ and Paul appear to disagree, then our understanding of Paul is flawed. But I never found that Paul taught against the Sabbath day. Just that we should not judge each other about the holy days, as they are a shadow of things to come.

Here is what Christ said about abrogating the Sabbath, or changing the Sabbath to another day:
Matthew 5:(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Christ said the Sabbath Day did not change to Sunday, and that it would not pass from the law as long as heaven and earth are here. If Paul is saying something different, or if your church is saying something different, then I choose Christ over all others.

Here are the men who openly claim to have the power to change the Sabbath to Sunday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#S ... _First-day
The Roman emperor Constantine the Great enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in 321 AD. The law did not mention the Sabbath by name, but referred only to a day of rest on “the venerable day of the sun.”

On the venerable day of the sun let the magistrate and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however, persons engaged in agricultural work may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain growing or for vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.[7]

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[8]

The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord’s day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[9]

A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.[10]

Catholic Christian:

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God’s worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God’s commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.[11]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday![12]
Out of all of the Catholic doctrines that are openly taught in Protestant churches, the destruction and/or modification of the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st is the most painfully obvious.

So the question that is to be asked, was the destruction of the Sabbath day, or the change of the Sabbath to Sunday, was this from heaven, or from man?

And if Christ said the Law, including the Sabbath, would never be destroyed, why did ye not then believe him?

But if your answer is, "We cannot tell", then I think we are finished talking about this issue.
0 x
"He replaced the teachings of Christ with his own opinions, and gave us a religion based on the doctrines of men."
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Valerie »

John, the Church was already assembling on Sunday in the New Testament- that was not something Constantine "started" that article has a variety of flaws in what it leads people to believe.

Again, as been said many many times- no one changed the Sabbath to Sunday- but Christians celebrated/assembled on the Lord's Day, as mentioned by Apostle John in Revelations-
Constantine who was the first emperor (as far as I know) to free Christians to worship, only declared a practice that was started by the Apostles. As the Orthodox Christian Church has taught for 2000 years, since the Apostles- Saturday IS still called the Sabbath Day- Sunday, the Lord's Day, and the Day that Christians gathered from the time of the Apostles through the present time.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

John,

Which calendar do you use?

There are several conflicting schemes used by those who practice Judaism to figure when to celebrate the various holidays.

I don't think the Bible really says anywhere exactly which calendar system to use or makes it important to get very specific days right.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14441
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnHurt wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:The relationship between the Old Testament and New Testament really had to be worked out after Jesus rose again and the believers received the Holy Spirit. Galatians is really one of the clearest guides on this, especially when read together with Acts 15.
Galatians and Acts 15 are both about Circumcision, and do not mention changing the Sabbath to Sunday, or abrogating the Sabbath as the 4th Commandment. I searched the Book of Galatians, and did not find a reference to the sabbath day, please correct me if I am wrong.
I really do suggest that you carefully read Acts 15 and Galatians - the entire book, and perhaps repeatedly. These are central texts for understanding the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Romans is too, but Galatians is clearer about many things, and it's probably best to start with Galatians.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14441
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

The Roman emperor Constantine the Great enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in 321 AD. The law did not mention the Sabbath by name, but referred only to a day of rest on “the venerable day of the sun.”
The first civil law, yes.

The early church did not enact civil laws. But the earliest writings we have that mention this clearly favor Sunday worship. I am not aware of any writings in the early church that tell Christians to keep the Jewish Sabbath. I am not aware of any writings in the early church that say Sunday is the Sabbath, they all seem to call it The Lord's Day.

The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr) (155-157 AD)
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.
Here it is in context:
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
The Epistle of Barnabas ( 80-120 A.D.) seems to draw on Hebrews, saying that the Sabbath rest for Christians is entering into heaven. He also uses Sabbaths in much the way that Paul did in Colossians 2, and here the reference clearly implies the Jewish Sabbath.
Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.
Ignatius to the Magnesians (105-115 A.D)
9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny -- a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher -- 9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
ken_sylvania
Posts: 3971
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:46 pm
Affiliation: CM

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by ken_sylvania »

JohnHurt wrote: And if Christ said the Law, including the Sabbath, would never be destroyed, why did ye not then believe him?
John, please take another look at what Jesus said here.
Matthew 5:17-18 wrote:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Jesus did not say that the law would never be destroyed. He said that every detail would remain in the law until it was fulfilled.

If you say that the law has not been fulfilled yet, then you are saying that Jesus failed in His purpose for coming to this earth. Jesus said that he came to fulfil the law. If Jesus successfully performed His mission, he fulfilled the law. In His perfect life, and by His death and resurrection, Jesus fulfilled all that the law was pointing toward. To insist on maintaining the law is to make the sacrifice of Christ of no effect, to reject His perfect fulfillment of the law.
0 x
Aaron
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:01 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Aaron »

Hats Off wrote:In that case I will correct myself; if I were trying to witness to Jews, I would first find out what is important to them and how best to approach them.
This comes to mind:
There was an old man in the mountains in central europe some years back.

He was faithful to God's Word, a true believer, and he prayed that God would send to him a Jew to save, to witness to, because he was too old to go find them (it was not in his purpose or ability at the time to travel).

God Answered his prayer.

God brought a man who later wrote "Tortured for Christ" to the old man in the mountains. The man God brought was a Jew who had refused all of his life so far, like many/most Jews also continued to refuse, to accept what the world of christendom called Jesus.

The old man went through Scripture and showed from Scripture the truth , and his life also was a living of truth, instead of hypocrisy or deception.
0 x
Aaron
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:01 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Aaron »

http://assembling.alanknox.net/2007/07/ ... -kuriakon/

This link a few pages back has changed to this - the old link no longer works.

From Alan Knox webpage: about the last paragraph:

"So, it does not matter what word is used to reference the church in the New Testament. We can use “church”, or “community”, or “église”, or “iglesia”. It is not the word itself that is important. Instead, it is important how we use those words. Do we use them to refer to buildings or organizations or denominations or clergy? If so, then we are not referring to the same thing that the New Testament authors were referring to when they used the Greek word ἐκκλησία (ekklesia).

However, if we use these words to refer to the people of God, then we are referring to the church, or community, or église, or iglesia, or ekklesia that Christ loved and for whom he gave himself."


I post it here to show what I am referring to when I say "Ekklesia", >> the ones born again, set apart by God for Himself in Christ Jesus.
Others at times say or post the word ekklesia not meaning to refer to God's people nor to the assembly of God's people.
So far, I have not used ekklesia to refer to any other people, nor to any other group, other than God's Chosen ones.
I realize most assemblies, most groups, most people, are not God's Chosen ones,
and
I mean to use "Ekklesia" to differentiate those people - God's People, as Described in Scripture.
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

When I say “church”, I mean “church”.

Of course, doing so landed me on a website denouncing me as a false teacher, but I hope we can keep that kind of nonsense out of here.
0 x
User avatar
JohnHurt
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:04 pm
Location: Buffalo Valley, TN
Affiliation: Primitive Christian
Contact:

Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by JohnHurt »

Sorry that I never answered your statements, I hope "3 years later" is not too late:
Valerie wrote:Again, as been said many many times- no one changed the Sabbath to Sunday- but Christians celebrated/assembled on the Lord's Day, as mentioned by Apostle John in Revelations-
The 7th day Sabbath is the Lord's Day, as stated by Christ Himself:
Mark 2:(28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
The Sabbath is the Lord's day, as it was on the Sabbath when Christ did His greatest miracles.

It is circular reasoning to say that since we now think that Sunday is the "Lord's Day", then we are supported by Revelation 1:10 that "the Lord's Day" in this passage is also speaking of Sunday. Christ's own words in Mark 2:28 destroys this argument. The Sabbath had not been changed to Sunday at the time of Christ. The Sabbath was on Saturday when Christ walked the earth. And the Apostle John knew the 7th Day was the Sabbath, as John also upheld God's Law: 1 John 3:4
Josh wrote:Which calendar do you use?
Every calendar has 7 days, with the 7th day being the Sabbath. In Spanish, Saturday is called "sábado", which comes from the Greek word "Σάββατο", which means the Sabbath. The German word for Saturday is "Samstag" or "sambaztac", which also comes from "Σάββατο", which means the Sabbath. So many of the calendars used around the world are telling us which day is the Sabbath. I think you are talking about the yearly feast days, which is another subject.
Bootstrap wrote:I really do suggest that you carefully read Acts 15 and Galatians - the entire book, and perhaps repeatedly. These are central texts for understanding the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Romans is too, but Galatians is clearer about many things, and it's probably best to start with Galatians.
Acts 15 and Galatians were written by the Apostles. Did the Apostles have the authority to change the Sabbath to another day? Perhaps we do not understand these writings.

What day did Christ keep as the Sabbath? Are the Apostles greater than Christ? Christ tells us the answer in John 13:16
Bootstrap wrote:But the earliest writings we have that mention this clearly favor Sunday worship.
A lot of good information from later writers who lived 150 years after Christ. How did they get the authority to change the Sabbath to Sunday? Did Christ grant Justin Martyr the right to change the Sabbath to Sunday? Who do we follow, Christ or Justin Martyr?

Did the early church immediately change the Sabbath to Sunday when Christ died? Luke 23:56 says no.

Perhaps the sabbath was abolished after the destruction of Jerusalem? Matthew 24:20 - the words of Christ again say "no".

But 150 years later, there were Gnostic "Christians", and all different kinds of sects that sprang up - and probably did change the Sabbath to Sunday. But not one of them is superior to Christ.

What day did Christ call the Sabbath? Who really changed the Sabbath to Sunday? Should we follow a religion ABOUT Christ, or the religion OF Christ? Should we follow the doctrines of men, or the example of Christ?
ken_sylvania wrote:John, please take another look at what Jesus said here.

Matthew 5:17-18 wrote:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus did not say that the law would never be destroyed. He said that every detail would remain in the law until it was fulfilled.

If you say that the law has not been fulfilled yet, then you are saying that Jesus failed in His purpose for coming to this earth. Jesus said that he came to fulfil the law. If Jesus successfully performed His mission, he fulfilled the law. In His perfect life, and by His death and resurrection, Jesus fulfilled all that the law was pointing toward. To insist on maintaining the law is to make the sacrifice of Christ of no effect, to reject His perfect fulfillment of the law.
You are confusing the word "fulfil" in Matthew 5:17 with the word "fulfilled" in Matthew 5:18. These two words in the Greek do not have the same meaning.

"Fulfil" in Mt 5:17 is "pleroo", which means to fill up, or cram a net full, or level up a hollow. Christ did this with the Sermon on the Mount and made the Law as a matter of the heart, and not just actions.

"Fulfilled" in Mt 5:18 is "ginomai" and means to "come into being" - per Strong's Dictionary. Neither one of these words means to "terminate". "Fulfilled" does not mean "terminate" or "destroy".

And you are ignoring the word "all":

And Mt 5:18 "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
"All" means "all." Christ has not returned. The last chapter of Revelation has not happened yet. So not the least stroke has passed from the law.

Your statement "If Jesus successfully performed His mission, he fulfilled the law" - this is incorrect. Christ is still working in this world, and has not completed His mission. He will complete His mission at His Return, as He promised.

And Heaven and Earth are still here too. You are not answering this statement. When Heaven and Earth pass away, then so will the Law pass away. That is the clear meaning of this passage.

The Kingdom of Heaven is also here and now, or you can believe it is in the future. But the Kingdom of Heaven has not "passed away". No one teaches the Kingdom of Heaven has been abolished.

And so if we read the next two verses, we find that entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven is through keeping the Commandments:
Matthew 5:(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
If the Kingdom of Heaven is either here now, or in the future, then the Commandments are also either here now, and in the future, as this is how we enter the Kingdom of Christ.

Christ made our entrance to Eternal Life dependent on keeping the Commandments:
Matthew 19:(16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
(19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
I think Christ knows more about Eternal Life and how to get it than anyone else.

If Paul is teaching something else, or we think that Paul is teaching something that contradicts Christ, or if our church is teaching something that contradicts these words of Christ, we need to determine who has greater authority.

Who has the authority to change the time of the Sabbath to another day, or to abolish the laws of God?
Daniel 7:25 gives us good idea of what is going on.

Thank you for this wonderful discussion, and I apologize for not giving you a reply - now 3 years later.

Have a great day.

John
0 x
"He replaced the teachings of Christ with his own opinions, and gave us a religion based on the doctrines of men."
Post Reply