Observing the Sabbath

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Bootstrap
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnHurt wrote:Christ is superior to Paul, or to any other messenger. Hebrews 1.

If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either Christ is correct and my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or Paul is incorrect.

In either case, Christ is superior.
if it seems that Paul or any other New Testament writer is disagreeing with Jesus, I assume I have misunderstood something. I can't proof-text this, I think the answer is to read Galatians carefully several times until it comes through. But my understanding is under the authority of the Bible, I don't decide which parts of the Bible I believe.

And I think that's the common ground of most of us on this forum. Since you don't believe Paul is inspired, you come to different conclusions about what the Bible says. You have a different Bible than we do.
JohnHurt wrote:You would have to prove these two points before I would leave. And I would. But I don't think you believe that. I hope not.

So, if I point out that Paul and Christ do not agree, it would be up to you to show me that they do. If it is hard to do, then perhaps our understanding of Paul is flawed.
You are saying that the burden of proof is on those who think Paul is part of the New Testament, and you won't drop it until we prove this to your satisfaction? What if we prove it to our own satisfaction, and doubt that we could ever prove it to your satisfaction, and don't really want to spend time and effort trying to prove something to you that you don't want to believe?
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Josh
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:
One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. Romans 14:5-6
I observe Sunday as my day of rest as unto the Lord. I'm fully convinced in my own mind as this text says we should be and that one day in seven is for rest. I go along with millions of other believers that Sunday is a good day for this. Others may chose another day and what is important is observing it unto the Lord. In my mind - case closed.
Sorry, Sudsy, but Romans doesn't count as scripture for this argument. You have to stick to the "red letters". (Isn't it convenient to toss out books of the Bible that disagree with you?)

However you do have to one big parts of the old law, because John has decided those do belong in the canon. You see, somehow John has the authority to decide what is scripture and what is not. No matter what you do, his authority will always be absolute and final.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnHurt wrote:Here is a good example of Gentile Christians keeping the sabbath as a day of worship:

Acts 16:(13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Do you really see that as evidence that Gentile Christians kept the Sabbath in the Jewish sense, even when they were not on mission trips to Jews, as Timothy was in that case? After all, the same chapter tells us that Paul had Timothy circumcised for this trip, but you would never claim that Paul believed all Gentile Christians must be circumcised. Even for Timothy, it's not at all clear that he kept the Sabbath - not even in this chapter. And I see no commandment for Gentile Christians to keep the Jewish Sabbath anywhere in the New Testament.
JohnHurt wrote:I always wonder why this verse is not given as much credibility as Acts 20:7, or 1 Cor 16:2. The reason is, these are the only two verses that give any credibility at all for meeting on Sunday.
I think the entire New Testament is equally credible. But I'm skeptical of proof-texting in general, and I am also very skeptical that you can understand the relationship between the New Testament and Old Testament without taking the letters of Paul into account. We don't have the same Bible.
JohnHurt wrote:I sincerely believe that these two verses (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2) concern the yearly Feast of First Fruits, and did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. There is no place in the Bible where God or Christ changed the Sabbath to Sunday.
Nobody in this thread seems too be arguing that Sunday is the Sabbath. It is the Lord's Day. It's not the same thing. That's been said often enough that it should probably be taken into account.

But I really doubt that these two verses refer to the Feast of First Fruits. I don't think you've given anything that looks like solid evidence that these feasts are even mentioned with respect to Gentile Christians.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Adam »

JohnHurt wrote:
Adam wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:Paul is wrong, but also right, in stating that what was added is now abolished, at least here on earth.

Take care and nice to talk to you.

John
John, if I understand your words correctly, it appears that you do not accept the words of Paul as inspired Scripture. If I am wrong in my assessment, please do let me know. But if you do not accept the entirety of the New Testament as inspired Scripture, including the words of Paul, this may not be the best forum for you. You will find that most of the people on this forum are in agreement that the entirety of the New Testament is inspired Scripture, and claims made contrary to that statement will not be well received or taken seriously. Rather they will be seen as an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words.

On the other hand, the fact that your arguments seem to indicate that ongoing Sabbath Observance by Gentile Christians necessitates disregarding the words of Paul as Scripture is very helpful for me with respect to my questions in the original post, and for that I thank you.
Adam,

Here is my position:

Christ is superior to Paul, or to any other messenger. Hebrews 1.

If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either Christ is correct and my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or Paul is incorrect.

In either case, Christ is superior.

If Christ and Paul appear to disagree to me, then you can say that my understanding of Paul may be incorrect. I am not offended.

It would help me if you can explain to me how Paul and Christ really do agree on these issues. I am happy with that.

But if any forum, or group of believers, did hold the teachings of Paul to be superior to the teachings of Christ, then the term "Christian" would not apply to them. And as a follower of Christ over anyone else, I would not belong there.

If a forum or group held that the men who selected the books in the Bible Canon to be superior to Christ, or held that certain books of the Bible Canon were superior to the teachings of Christ, then as a follower of Christ over anyone else, I would not belong there. So we agree there too.

You would have to prove these two points before I would leave. And I would. But I don't think you believe that. I hope not.

So, if I point out that Paul and Christ do not agree, it would be up to you to show me that they do. If it is hard to do, then perhaps our understanding of Paul is flawed.

-------------------------------

Back to the subject of your post:

Here is a good example of Gentile Christians keeping the sabbath as a day of worship:

Acts 16:(13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

I always wonder why this verse is not given as much credibility as Acts 20:7, or 1 Cor 16:2. The reason is, these are the only two verses that give any credibility at all for meeting on Sunday.

I sincerely believe that these two verses (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2) concern the yearly Feast of First Fruits, and did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. There is no place in the Bible where God or Christ changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

And I believe that the early church did not have the authority on its own, to change the Sabbath to another day, without the clear instruction of Christ or YHVH. The Catholic church does claim this authority.

What do you think? Does the church have the authority to change the Sabbath to another day?

--------------------------------------------

My hope is not cause controversy, but to encourage you to study so that you can properly address my arguments.

If I am in agreement with everything you already know, you won't learn anything from me. Iron sharpens iron, but only if the iron has a rough edge on it, like a file. Our differences are the "rough edges" that makes us sharp.

In that, I make my comments are in Christian love, and the hope of providing a different viewpoint to create a good discussion.

Blessings to you.

John
Nobody here is saying that we should start with Paul and interpret Christ through the eyes of Paul. What we are saying is that as Gentile believers, we were never commanded to keep the Sabbath. Having said that, until you are willing to affirm on this thread that the entirety of the New Testament is inspired Scripture, I do not see any point in continuing this conversation because we will just keep going around in circles. Blessings to you!
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by ken_sylvania »

JohnHurt wrote: And you are right, Christ said that all of the Law would always be relevant, yet there is no Temple to offer sacrifices. There is no "place where the Lord has put His name" for where we should celebrate the yearly feast days. And circumcision is only given to the physical descendants of Abraham (Gen 17:10), so that is not a commandment for everyone either.
Where does Jesus Christ give you the authority to ignore the sacrifices? Did the Lord remove His name from the place where He put it?
JohnHurt wrote: For the sacrificial law, the Book of Hebrews tells us that there is a true tabernacle, not made with hands, where Christ is our High Priest. This is where the sacrificial law is performed, once and for all.

For if the sacrificial law had been abolished, then Christ would not have needed to die on the cross. His sacrifice is something that we still celebrate, so the sacrificial law, now in the true tabernacle, is something we acknowledge as eternal. Hebrews 9.

The feast days are no longer in Jerusalem, and no longer point to the delivery from Egypt, or the sojourn in the desert.
The feast days all point to Christ.
Did Jesus say all this?
JohnHurt wrote: The only major differences between most of us are the dietary laws, resting on the 7th day, usury, and replacing the pagan feast days that honor Mithras and replacing them with the holy days that honor Christ.
No Sir. We disagree strongly on the nature of the old covenant vs. the new covenant, and we strongly disagree on what constitutes the inspired Word of God.
JohnHurt wrote: In one thing I will agree with Paul. That there was a part of the law that was added because of transgressions. (Gal 3:19).

This is talking about the laws added after the covenant of Sinai, which are the sacrificial laws. Paul is wrong, yet right in that they are not on earth at this point.

Carefully look at Exodus 20 - the 10 Commandments.

Exodus 21-23 - the law written in a scroll. This was the basis of the covenant, and was the moral laws that men should follow.
Exodus 24 - the covenant
Exodus 25-31 the tabernacles laws, that had been added after covenant.

Paul is wrong, but also right, in stating that what was added is now abolished, at least here on earth.
Where do you get the authority for all this? Jesus certainly never said this, and you're telling us that Paul had no authority to teach anything that Jesus didn't directly teach. Now you propose to correct Paul and we're supposed to accept your authority????
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by ohio jones »

JohnHurt wrote:If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either Christ is correct and my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or Paul is incorrect.

In either case, Christ is superior.

If Christ and Paul appear to disagree to me, then you can say that my understanding of Paul may be incorrect. I am not offended.

It would help me if you can explain to me how Paul and Christ really do agree on these issues. I am happy with that.

...

So, if I point out that Paul and Christ do not agree, it would be up to you to show me that they do. If it is hard to do, then perhaps our understanding of Paul is flawed.
Wouldn't it also be possible for a flawed understanding of Christ to be the problem?

I would put it this way: If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or my understanding of Christ is incorrect, or possibly both.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Neto »

As has already been stated (probably several times, by several participants in this thread), Sunday is not the Sabbath. (Although many Christians have, and do, think of it that way.)

But I have a question for those who believe that the NT indicates that we are to worship on Sunday, or that the NT Church clearly had that practice. What, if any, are the principles in the OT (and in the NT for that matter) with respect to the Sabbath that may be applied to your Sunday worship, or practices? (Or are there none at all?) For instance, does the 'day of rest' Sabbath principle apply?
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by silentreader »

Neto wrote:As has already been stated (probably several times, by several participants in this thread), Sunday is not the Sabbath. (Although many Christians have, and do, think of it that way.)

But I have a question for those who believe that the NT indicates that we are to worship on Sunday, or that the NT Church clearly had that practice. What, if any, are the principles in the OT (and in the NT for that matter) with respect to the Sabbath that may be applied to your Sunday worship, or practices? (Or are there none at all?) For instance, does the 'day of rest' Sabbath principle apply?
I won't attempt to answer your question, but isn't 'a day of rest' a Creation principle, thus being separate from both old and new covenants?
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Neto »

silentreader wrote:
Neto wrote:As has already been stated (probably several times, by several participants in this thread), Sunday is not the Sabbath. (Although many Christians have, and do, think of it that way.)

But I have a question for those who believe that the NT indicates that we are to worship on Sunday, or that the NT Church clearly had that practice. What, if any, are the principles in the OT (and in the NT for that matter) with respect to the Sabbath that may be applied to your Sunday worship, or practices? (Or are there none at all?) For instance, does the 'day of rest' Sabbath principle apply?
I won't attempt to answer your question, but isn't 'a day of rest' a Creation principle, thus being separate from both old and new covenants?
Yes, I suppose so, especially looking back from the era of the Law. I'm not sure if there is any mention of it prior to that, although I would agree that it is based on the Creation events. (But I would also point out that the day on which God "rested from all of his work" after creation was, in fact, the Sabbath.) I would have to do a read-through to be sure, but no NT passage comes to mind that would support the idea of a day of rest as a NT era teaching. I think that all comes from Sabbath day teaching, and so I'm trying to separate it in my mind. (I don't personally separate the Scripture in that way, but I'm trying to understand how it would work out from that point of view.)
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:Yes, I suppose so, especially looking back from the era of the Law. I'm not sure if there is any mention of it prior to that, although I would agree that it is based on the Creation events. (But I would also point out that the day on which God "rested from all of his work" after creation was, in fact, the Sabbath.) I would have to do a read-through to be sure, but no NT passage comes to mind that would support the idea of a day of rest as a NT era teaching. I think that all comes from Sabbath day teaching, and so I'm trying to separate it in my mind. (I don't personally separate the Scripture in that way, but I'm trying to understand how it would work out from that point of view.)
Here is one clear exhortation:
Hebrews 10 wrote:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
We should not neglect to meet together. We have descriptions of Christians meeting on Sundays, described as "The Lord's Day", in the earliest church, so that's a plausible day for meeting together.

And I like to use Sunday to find plenty of time for fellowship with family, perhaps together with other families, with a focus on God.

But I don't see anything in the New Testament telling Gentile Christians to observe the Sabbath according to the guidelines given in the Torah. For instance ...
Exodus 16 wrote:“This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’” 24 So they laid it aside till the morning, as Moses commanded them, and it did not stink, and there were no worms in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”
I have known some Christians who will not even reheat food on Sunday because they believe this is a binding commandment today.
Numbers 15 wrote:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is what the Jews were commanded to do. He was probably gathering sticks to build a fire to cook food. I would hate to see Mennonites execute someone who cooks on a Sunday. But it is a straightforward application of the commandment:
Exodus 31 wrote:12 And the Lord said to Moses, 13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
I wouldn't join a church that applies this text to its members.
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