Observing the Sabbath

General Christian Theology
RZehr
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by RZehr »

John -

In your opinion, is meeting on Sunday instead of Saturday, the same as changing Sabbath to Sunday?
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Josh
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

John,
Many of us have too much invested in a church title, a church hierarchy, or a paid church job to ever challenge these changes. That is why Christ condemned who should be the greatest, or titles of Father, Rabbi, or Master, and said that "freely give, freely you have received."
Conservative Mennonites do not pay for "church jobs". They do not have paid pastors. And we avoid church titles - calling each other "brother". Some people are shepherds, teachers, ones who are sent out, messengers, and ones who share the good news, but those aren't titles or jobs.

Most of us don't have a church hierarchy either.
Most conservative Mennonites are independent, just having simple fellowship with other churches, but the authority lies with every brother in the church.

In the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, my own church, we also do not recognise Easter or Christmas as religious holidays or hold special church services. We hold church on Sundays since that is when people have time off but we also have services on Wednesday night.

The real question here is: why don't you become part of such a church? Sounds like we have what you are looking for.
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Josh
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:John -

In your opinion, is meeting on Sunday instead of Saturday, the same as changing Sabbath to Sunday?
Or meeting on Wednesday...
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Bootstrap
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnHurt wrote:If I were to ask, "by whose authority has the 1st day been made into a worship or rest day, in honor of Christ's resurrection", I am certain I would get the same answer.

Your Ad Hominem Tu quoque attacks - against my person based on statements made I made elsewhere, are irrelevant to the logic of this argument, in that these statements that you attack are not the basis of my position for the current argument. That is, bringing up statements about Paul has nothing to do with the current subject.

And your appeal to the Bible canon is a red herring to distract everyone from the question I have asked.
Paul is relevant to me and to most people here. The fact that you do not have the same Bible we do is completely relevant. Because you do not accept the testimony of much of the New Testament, you can reject what it says. After all, you were scathing about those who do not accept the authority of your reading of one verse, Luke 6:1, but you expect us to overlook it if you reject the authority of much of the New Testament.

And I think we have directly addressed your question many times now.

When it comes down to it, I think you are creating your own unique religion. And maybe the details aren't that important. What you are promoting is very much what Paul rejected in Galatians. That's why Paul is relevant.
JohnHurt wrote:And to quote Paul, even Paul tells you not to judge me in meat, or drink, or my respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

Because Paul tell you that these "are a shadow of things to come". Col 2:16-17 That is, even Paul knew that these Holy days established by God would be kept in full in the future.
But you are judging others who do not keep these days, directly contradicting the teaching of Paul.
JohnHurt wrote:But if your eyes are darkened and you won't give up the man-made December 25, and will not give up the man-made Easter for Passover, then you won't give up Sunday and replace it with the Sabbath day either. I am talking to the wrong people.
You may well be talking to the wrong people. We do not have a common basis for determining what the Bible says. You misrepresent what people here believe, and speculate about other things. For instance, I certainly don't believe that Jesus was born on December 25th, and I don't think Sunday was the Sabbath. I do think that the church celebrated Christ's resurrection from early on. Easter is not the same thing as Passover. Jesus died and rose again. That's central to our faith, and it's something we celebrate.
JohnHurt wrote:And so I will answer my own question: Who had the authority to change the Sabbath to Sunday? The Catholic church did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#S ... _First-day
Why do you continue to ignore much earlier sources that were provided in this thread, including the Revelation, as though nobody had said anything? It's almost as though you have a bunch of text lying around somewhere and you're just dumping it in.

I thought Adam's exegesis on how Jesus approached the Sabbath and what Galatians tells us about how to approach it was really some of the best content in this thread.
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JohnHurt
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by JohnHurt »

RZehr wrote:John -

In your opinion, is meeting on Sunday instead of Saturday, the same as changing Sabbath to Sunday?
Raymond,

The Sabbath is understood primarily as a day of rest, and there are some who rest on the 7th day, but can only find an assembly with other Christians on the 1st day. That was my position for a long time, and I was able to have more "community" with other believers that kept Sunday services.

But further study led me to Leviticus 23:3, where the Sabbath is also the day of Holy Convocation, or a holy assembly.

I have carefully researched this verse, and it appears to me that the Sabbath is the day of worship too.

But once you take this step, and worship on the Sabbath day, you will be cut off from many of your old friends and relatives.

One of the families that we fellowship has a Russian Mennonite background, and Church of Christ. When they changed their worship day from Sunday to Saturday, their families just about disowned them. It has been over 10 years now, and some things have healed, but there is still a division.

They are friends with another Amish family near Lobelville, TN, that read their Bible and found the Sabbath day over Sunday. From what I understand, they have been shunned by the community. It takes a lot of courage to follow obedience over conformity when you are part of a horse and buggy community, and truly depend on each other.

It may make us want to "count the cost" of discipleship. But I have found that every time I am tested with a choice to obey God, or conform to man, if I truly try to follow the Lord, then there is an immediate period of persecution, mostly by my own family and friends. So I expect the persecution now. But I also find out who my true friends are too.

But after this period of persecution, something beautiful happens. About 6 months or so later, a blessing from God, just as great or greater than what I lost, is presented to me. This has happened over and over again. Many of my children were born just after some of the persecutions. I was given a new job, new friends, a farm, now a business making geodesic domes. Each time, a persecution followed by a greater blessing.

But the greatest blessing is that I have true friends that really love me, unconditionally, regardless of whether I agree with them on everything, for they see that I seek to walk the best that I understand. And the others friends and even family, that demanded conformity as a condition of their love, with these I have been blessed with their separation. But I could not see this until the test of obedience was made.

So, now I try to be really open to others, and if they rest on Saturday and worship on Sunday, I understand because I was once there. And I also at one time believed that Sunday was the Sabbath day, and rested on that day too.

But it is clear to me that the Sabbath, as part of the 10 Commandments, and founded by God in Genesis 2:2, is still here today. It is a blessing for all of us.

And the 7th day Sabbath was celebrated by the many of the early Anabaptists, who found this same blessing:

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Sabbat ... nabaptists

John
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JohnHurt
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by JohnHurt »

Josh wrote:John,
Many of us have too much invested in a church title, a church hierarchy, or a paid church job to ever challenge these changes. That is why Christ condemned who should be the greatest, or titles of Father, Rabbi, or Master, and said that "freely give, freely you have received."
Conservative Mennonites do not pay for "church jobs". They do not have paid pastors. And we avoid church titles - calling each other "brother". Some people are shepherds, teachers, ones who are sent out, messengers, and ones who share the good news, but those aren't titles or jobs.

Most of us don't have a church hierarchy either.
Most conservative Mennonites are independent, just having simple fellowship with other churches, but the authority lies with every brother in the church.

In the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, my own church, we also do not recognise Easter or Christmas as religious holidays or hold special church services. We hold church on Sundays since that is when people have time off but we also have services on Wednesday night.

The real question here is: why don't you become part of such a church? Sounds like we have what you are looking for.
That's great Josh. Thanks! I will look into it.

Do you have a good website that would list the beliefs of the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite?
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Josh
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

The book "Bible Doctrine and Practice" from Gospel Publishers would sum it up. You can borrow a copy by visiting your local Holdeman church.
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Adam
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Adam »

JohnHurt wrote:So I expect the persecution now. But I also find out who my true friends are too.
I have Christian friends here in Papua New Guinea who worship on the Sabbath. They are part of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and in many ways their obedience to the Word of God far exceeds other churches. I disagree with their theology that requires worshipping on Saturday and does not allow consumption of pork, but on the basis of Romans 14:5-6, I respect their choices and I still love them as Christian brothers. They disagree with my theology that says that Gentile Christians were never commanded to follow the Sabbath and are permitted to eat pork, but they still love me as a Christian brother. One SDA church member works with me on the Enga Bible translation project.
JohnHurt wrote:I am talking to the wrong people.
This is the point I have been trying to make. Yes, you are talking to the wrong people because we accept Paul's words as inspired Scripture and you don't. That fundamental disagreement will make it difficult for us to see eye-to-eye on this subject. But please don't mistake our disagreement for hatred or persecution. Nobody on this forum hates or even dislikes John Hurt the person. We just have a fundamental disagreement with you based on what we accept as Scripture. That is why I suggested that this forum may not be the best one for you to participate in. I suggest that you find or start a different forum for Sabbath-observing Christians. Then if people are interested in that viewpoint, they can search you out and ask questions. But people on this forum are generally not interested in entertaining such views and will not appreciate or be receptive to your efforts to 'evangelize' on this topic, especially since it is accompanied by a viewpoint that rejects portions of the New Testament as Scripture.

Blessings to you.
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silentreader
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by silentreader »

John, interestingly enough, just lately I ran across an article that said that Alfred Edersheim in his book, 'The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah', I think that was the title, makes a case for a December 25th date for the birth of Jesus.
I haven't had the chance to check it out, so I have no idea if it is credible.
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lesterb
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by lesterb »

silentreader wrote:John, interestingly enough, just lately I ran across an article that said that Alfred Edersheim in his book, 'The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah', I think that was the title, makes a case for a December 25th date for the birth of Jesus.
I haven't had the chance to check it out, so I have no idea if it is credible.
I have the book, and have read that. His discussion is just as credible as that of the people who disagree with the date.

The book is a bit tedious and is around a thousand pages, but I enjoyed it.
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