Observing the Sabbath

General Christian Theology
silentreader
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by silentreader »

Neto wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Neto wrote:As has already been stated (probably several times, by several participants in this thread), Sunday is not the Sabbath. (Although many Christians have, and do, think of it that way.)

But I have a question for those who believe that the NT indicates that we are to worship on Sunday, or that the NT Church clearly had that practice. What, if any, are the principles in the OT (and in the NT for that matter) with respect to the Sabbath that may be applied to your Sunday worship, or practices? (Or are there none at all?) For instance, does the 'day of rest' Sabbath principle apply?
I won't attempt to answer your question, but isn't 'a day of rest' a Creation principle, thus being separate from both old and new covenants?
Yes, I suppose so, especially looking back from the era of the Law. I'm not sure if there is any mention of it prior to that, although I would agree that it is based on the Creation events. (But I would also point out that the day on which God "rested from all of his work" after creation was, in fact, the Sabbath.) I would have to do a read-through to be sure, but no NT passage comes to mind that would support the idea of a day of rest as a NT era teaching. I think that all comes from Sabbath day teaching, and so I'm trying to separate it in my mind. (I don't personally separate the Scripture in that way, but I'm trying to understand how it would work out from that point of view.)
Basically, I think it says that God 'sabbathed' on the seventh day from all His work that He had done and He blessed the seventh day and made it holy. I'm not aware that we have any guidance as to what that involved until the Mosaic law.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Neto »

Bootstrap wrote:
Neto wrote:Yes, I suppose so, especially looking back from the era of the Law. I'm not sure if there is any mention of it prior to that, although I would agree that it is based on the Creation events. (But I would also point out that the day on which God "rested from all of his work" after creation was, in fact, the Sabbath.) I would have to do a read-through to be sure, but no NT passage comes to mind that would support the idea of a day of rest as a NT era teaching. I think that all comes from Sabbath day teaching, and so I'm trying to separate it in my mind. (I don't personally separate the Scripture in that way, but I'm trying to understand how it would work out from that point of view.)
Here is one clear exhortation:
Hebrews 10 wrote:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
We should not neglect to meet together. We have descriptions of Christians meeting on Sundays, described as "The Lord's Day", in the earliest church, so that's a plausible day for meeting together.

And I like to use Sunday to find plenty of time for fellowship with family, perhaps together with other families, with a focus on God.

But I don't see anything in the New Testament telling Gentile Christians to observe the Sabbath according to the guidelines given in the Torah. For instance ...
Exodus 16 wrote:“This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’” 24 So they laid it aside till the morning, as Moses commanded them, and it did not stink, and there were no worms in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is a Sabbath, there will be none.”
I have known some Christians who will not even reheat food on Sunday because they believe this is a binding commandment today.
Numbers 15 wrote:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is what the Jews were commanded to do. He was probably gathering sticks to build a fire to cook food. I would hate to see Mennonites execute someone who cooks on a Sunday. But it is a straightforward application of the commandment:
Exodus 31 wrote:12 And the Lord said to Moses, 13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
I wouldn't join a church that applies this text to its members.
I wasn't trying to answer the original question, or revive that discussion, so maybe I should have started a different thread. I didn't because I felt that if one assumes the correctness of your answer to the original question, this question is a follow up to the original question, and that discussion seems to me to have run its course already.
So for the sake of the question I posed, I was assuming that Jewish Sabbath gathering/worship was replaced by Christian Sunday gathering/worship. (I hope that not too much will be made of my choice of words here, using the word 'replaced'. I do not mean to refer in any way to 'replacement theology', or anything of that nature.) I’m not saying that is necessarily my own view, but that this was the point of view from which I was asking the question. I didn't intend to again drag out all of the parts of Sabbath observance that those who believe that Sunday is the day we should be gathering reject - but rather I am asking if there are any principles that were a part of Sabbath gathering/worship that you feel SHOULD be observed, or for which you believe there is NT support. (The underlying assumption was of course that we SHOULD meet together - as is taught in the Hebrews text you pointed to.)

My original question:
Neto wrote:What, if any, are the principles in the OT (and in the NT for that matter) with respect to the Sabbath that may be applied to your Sunday worship, or practices? (Or are there none at all?)
Please allow me to refine that by specifying that these are expressed in the positive, not the negative. What valuable principles exist in the OT Sabbath teachings that have valid applications for Sunday worship? (I do have some specific questions in mind, but I’d prefer to leave it more open, not to confine the discussion only to those things I’ve thought of myself.)
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Adam »

ohio jones wrote: Wouldn't it also be possible for a flawed understanding of Christ to be the problem?

I would put it this way: If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or my understanding of Christ is incorrect, or possibly both.
This is a really good point. It is helpful to review Christ's teachings about the Sabbath. This is my summary:

Jesus always seemed to do his works of healing on the Sabbath, and when persecuted for doing such works on the Sabbath, he replied, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." It doesn't seem that Jesus is ever presented as one who meticulously keeps the Sabbath, other than the fact that he would go to synagogue on the Sabbath. Rather, he is always presented as breaking the Sabbath (at least the Pharisaical interpretation of the Sabbath). Nor can I find any Scripture where Jesus or the apostles rebuke anyone for not keeping the Sabbath. Rather than rebuking people for not keeping the Sabbath, Jesus comes to the defense of those accused of breaking the Sabbath and argues for various type of work than can and should be done on the Sabbath. On top of that, Paul seems to rebuke those who continue to observe Sabbaths.

Furthermore, it seems that every one of the ten commandments is reiterated or reinforced in the New Testament (although not necessarily quoted verbatim), except for the commandment to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Josh »

I find it interesting there is far less passion to figure out the 2nd commandment than the 4th.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

Adam wrote:
ohio jones wrote: Wouldn't it also be possible for a flawed understanding of Christ to be the problem?

I would put it this way: If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or my understanding of Christ is incorrect, or possibly both.
This is a really good point. It is helpful to review Christ's teachings about the Sabbath. This is my summary:

Jesus always seemed to do his works of healing on the Sabbath, and when persecuted for doing such works on the Sabbath, he replied, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." It doesn't seem that Jesus is ever presented as one who meticulously keeps the Sabbath, other than the fact that he would go to synagogue on the Sabbath. Rather, he is always presented as breaking the Sabbath (at least the Pharisaical interpretation of the Sabbath). Nor can I find any Scripture where Jesus or the apostles rebuke anyone for not keeping the Sabbath. Rather than rebuking people for not keeping the Sabbath, Jesus comes to the defense of those accused of breaking the Sabbath and argues for various type of work than can and should be done on the Sabbath. On top of that, Paul seems to rebuke those who continue to observe Sabbaths.

Furthermore, it seems that every one of the ten commandments is reiterated or reinforced in the New Testament (although not necessarily quoted verbatim), except for the commandment to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
This is excellent, Adam.

Back to Neto's question ...

I keep coming back to this:
Bootstrap wrote:Here is one clear exhortation:
Hebrews 10 wrote:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
We should not neglect to meet together. We have descriptions of Christians meeting on Sundays, described as "The Lord's Day", in the earliest church, so that's a plausible day for meeting together.

And I like to use Sunday to find plenty of time for fellowship with family, perhaps together with other families, with a focus on God.
Does it have to be Sunday? Probably not. After all, some of the early accounts tell us about Christians meeting daily. But Sunday was recognized as The Lord's Day, and was a day that they gathered for worship, so it's as good as any other day.

Do I have to refrain from gathering sticks on Sunday? I don't think so. On the other hand, resting from our work is good, we burn out if we don't. And we need time to focus on God and on fellowship.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

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Adam wrote:
ohio jones wrote: Wouldn't it also be possible for a flawed understanding of Christ to be the problem?

I would put it this way: If Paul and Christ appear to disagree, then either my understanding of Paul is incorrect, or my understanding of Christ is incorrect, or possibly both.
This is a really good point. It is helpful to review Christ's teachings about the Sabbath. This is my summary:

Jesus always seemed to do his works of healing on the Sabbath, and when persecuted for doing such works on the Sabbath, he replied, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." It doesn't seem that Jesus is ever presented as one who meticulously keeps the Sabbath, other than the fact that he would go to synagogue on the Sabbath. Rather, he is always presented as breaking the Sabbath (at least the Pharisaical interpretation of the Sabbath). Nor can I find any Scripture where Jesus or the apostles rebuke anyone for not keeping the Sabbath. Rather than rebuking people for not keeping the Sabbath, Jesus comes to the defense of those accused of breaking the Sabbath and argues for various type of work than can and should be done on the Sabbath. On top of that, Paul seems to rebuke those who continue to observe Sabbaths.

Furthermore, it seems that every one of the ten commandments is reiterated or reinforced in the New Testament (although not necessarily quoted verbatim), except for the commandment to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
Adam, you might find this interesting:


Christ said that the Sabbath Day would exist long after His death:

Matthew 24:(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Regardless of the 2nd Century church, the original followers of Christ continued to keep the Sabbath day after His death:

Luke 23:(56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


The writer of Hebrews also thinks that the principle of the Sabbath day is relevant to Christians:

Hebrews 4:(4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

(5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

(6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

(7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

(11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


So, I will strive to enter this rest, and not harden my heart, as in the day of provocation:

Psalms 95:(6) O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

(7) For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

(8) Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

(9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

(10) Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

(11) Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.


Joshua and Caleb were the only ones of that generation to enter into His rest, because they believed God, and did not follow everyone else.

The question that won't be answered is this:

Who changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st? By whose authority was this change made?

John
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnHurt wrote:]The question that won't be answered is this:

Who changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st? By whose authority was this change made?
This question has been answered at least a dozen times in this thread, starting very early, but you keep saying it hasn't been. Nobody changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st. The 1st is The Lord's Day, in honor of his resurrection. We are not Judaizers, and have been warned to steer clear of them. Gentile Christians were never told to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Adam has given us an excellent summary of how Jesus related to the Sabbath. Earlier in this thread, he gave another excellent summary of how Christians should relate to the Sabbath in light of what Paul taught us in Galatians.

But the authority question you keep ignoring is this: who gives you authority to dismiss much of the New Testament? How are we to understand who we are in Christ and how we live as the church of the resurrection if we ignore most of what happened in the New Testament after the resurrection? One of the things the Gospels tell us consistently is that there are things Jesus cannot yet teach them. Even after the resurrection, they are to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit clothes them with power from on high. And we have the written record of what they did and taught when that happened. We should not ignore it.

Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you? How can you dismiss Paul's authority and expect us to accept yours?
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

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Bootstrap wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:]The question that won't be answered is this:

Who changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st? By whose authority was this change made?
This question has been answered at least a dozen times in this thread, starting very early, but you keep saying it hasn't been. Nobody changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st. The 1st is The Lord's Day, in honor of his resurrection. We are not Judaizers, and have been warned to steer clear of them. Gentile Christians were never told to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Adam has given us an excellent summary of how Jesus related to the Sabbath. Earlier in this thread, he gave another excellent summary of how Christians should relate to the Sabbath in light of what Paul taught us in Galatians.

But the authority question you keep ignoring is this: who gives you authority to dismiss much of the New Testament? How are we to understand who we are in Christ and how we live as the church of the resurrection if we ignore most of what happened in the New Testament after the resurrection? One of the things the Gospels tell us consistently is that there are things Jesus cannot yet teach them. Even after the resurrection, they are to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit clothes them with power from on high. And we have the written record of what they did and taught when that happened. We should not ignore it.

Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you? How can you dismiss Paul's authority and expect us to accept yours?

John, there are certain minimum standards on this forum and one of those is that we believe the entire Bible as being authoritative. We can not pick and choose which parts to believe and which to discard. Where one portion seems to contradict another portion, we know that we understand something incorrectly. As has been pointed out before and you refuse to accept, Paul DOES NOT CONTRADICT Jesus. They were speaking to different audiences. Wherever we think contradictions appear, we know that we need to find a different understanding of one or the other or both portions. Those are things you must understand if you wish to participate meaningfully in this forum.
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

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JohnHurt wrote: The writer of Hebrews also thinks that the principle of the Sabbath day is relevant to Christians:
John
This entire discussion has been about how we also agree with the writer of Hebrews that the principle of the Sabbath day is relevant to Christians
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Re: Observing the Sabbath

Post by JohnHurt »

Bootstrap wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:]The question that won't be answered is this:

Who changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st? By whose authority was this change made?
This question has been answered at least a dozen times in this thread, starting very early, but you keep saying it hasn't been. Nobody changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st. The 1st is The Lord's Day, in honor of his resurrection.
If I were to ask, "by whose authority has the 1st day been made into a worship or rest day, in honor of Christ's resurrection", I am certain I would get the same answer.

Your Ad Hominem Tu quoque attacks - against my person based on statements made I made elsewhere, are irrelevant to the logic of this argument, in that these statements that you attack are not the basis of my position for the current argument. That is, bringing up statements about Paul has nothing to do with the current subject.

And your appeal to the Bible canon is a red herring to distract everyone from the question I have asked.

Per your request, I have not spoken about the contradictions between the doctrines of Paul and Christ. Yet, these old statements I made on another thread, are brought up, whenever a painful question is asked.

The three Catholic holy days that nearly every Protestant keeps are:

1. The Sabbath was changed to Sunday
2. The Computus, or computation of Easter, to replace Passover
3. The Birth of Christ on December 25th

These innovations were all added by the 2nd to 4th century Catholic church. Christ and His Apostles never worshiped on Sunday, they did not invent Easter, and Christ was not born on December 25th. Men have created all of these innovations.

Many of us have too much invested in a church title, a church hierarchy, or a paid church job to ever challenge these changes. That is why Christ condemned who should be the greatest, or titles of Father, Rabbi, or Master, and said that "freely give, freely you have received."

And to quote Paul, even Paul tells you not to judge me in meat, or drink, or my respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

Because Paul tell you that these "are a shadow of things to come". Col 2:16-17 That is, even Paul knew that these Holy days established by God would be kept in full in the future.

Isaiah speaks of the Sabbath being kept after the formation of the new heaven and new earth:

Isaiah 66:(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

He also speaks about the return of Christ earlier in that chapter (66:15-17), and the result of His displeasure with our modern churches.

Zechariah 14 speaks of the return of Christ, and that every nation will keep the feast of Tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:16-19)

But if your eyes are darkened and you won't give up the man-made December 25, and will not give up the man-made Easter for Passover, then you won't give up Sunday and replace it with the Sabbath day either. I am talking to the wrong people.

But here is some information for you:

The Sabbath was the day that Christ went to church:

Luke 4: (16) And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Christ said the Sabbath was made for us, and that the Sabbath was His day:

Mark 2:(27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

(28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This was the day that Christ taught his followers:

Luke 4:(31) And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.

Luke 6:(6) And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

So it is much more obvious that the Sabbath is the Lord's day in Revelation 1:10, not the Sunday invented by the churches.

So, you have asked me, how I have the authority to challenge the church opinion of Sunday worship: I trust only in Christ, and not man.

For man has changed the Sabbath to Sunday, not Christ or YHVH.

It has been interesting talking to you. You don't have to respond to this, because the only thing you can do is to attack me personally again on some other issue.

And so I will answer my own question: Who had the authority to change the Sabbath to Sunday? The Catholic church did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#S ... _First-day

Code: Select all

The Roman emperor Constantine the Great enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in 321 AD. The law did not mention the Sabbath by name, but referred only to a day of rest on “the venerable day of the sun.”

    On the venerable day of the sun let the magistrate and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however, persons engaged in agricultural work may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain growing or for vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.[7]

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

    Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
    A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
    Q. How prove you that?
    A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[8]

The Augsburg Confession:

    They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord’s day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[9]

A Doctrinal Catechism,

    Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
    A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.[10]

Catholic Christian:

    Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
    A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God’s worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God’s commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.[11]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent:

    The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday![12] 
Take care, and no, you don't have to respond to me anymore.

John
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