Observing the Sabbath

[RZehr]

I have 5 siblings that my parents adopted, and since there was not certainty about the date of their birth, an educated guess was made, and now they have a birth date that is used and celebrated.

[JohnHurt]

I thought Adam's exegesis on how Jesus approached the Sabbath and what Galatians tells us about how to approach it was really some of the best content in this thread.

Thank you for your comments, I really appreciate your input.

If I were totally convinced of all of my ideas and positions on scripture, then there would not be a need to discuss them with you, other than trying to push my opinion on other people, which is a type of vanity.

But your answers have helped be solidify some of my positions, and question others. I have had to do more research based on our discussion. So, the result is that your words have made me sharper.

Thanks again,

John

[JohnHurt]

We just have a fundamental disagreement with you based on what we accept as Scripture. That is why I suggested that this forum may not be the best one for you to participate in. I suggest that you find or start a different forum for Sabbath-observing Christians. Then if people are interested in that viewpoint, they can search you out and ask questions. But people on this forum are generally not interested in entertaining such views and will not appreciate or be receptive to your efforts to 'evangelize' on this topic, especially since it is accompanied by a viewpoint that rejects portions of the New Testament as Scripture.

Blessings to you.

Adam,

This is a forum for Anabaptists. Many Anabaptists have kept the Sabbath.

You can find some good articles on Sabbatarian Anabaptists, such as these:

http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Sabbat ... nabaptists

http://friendsofsabbath.org/ABC/Church% ... ptists.pdf

This is an SDA article on them:

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv ... nabaptists

The point that is made in some of these articles, is that ideas the Sabbatarian Anabaptists were persecuted by some of the Anabaptist groups, just as Adult Baptism had been persecuted by the Catholic Church.

The Sabbatarian Anabaptist Andreas Fischer and Oswald Glait were martyred for their beliefs, and their writings and tracts destroyed by their fellow Anabaptists. There is a parallel to today.

What is needed is not persecution, but an open discussion of ideas, to find the truth in scripture.

This is what was said of the church in Berea:

Acts 17:(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If our discussion makes you search the scriptures to see if these things are so, then that is a good thing.

But if it makes someone want to ban someone else from presenting their ideas, as the Jews in Thessalonica did, then history has shown that doesn't work.

An idea that is from God cannot be burned at the stake, or stoned, or hung on a cross. That just makes it stronger.

And if it is not from God, then it will perish on its own, as did the ideas of Marcion and his New Testament Canon. Gamaliel said this very thing in Acts 5:38-39:

(38) And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

(39) But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

If you want to avoid talking about the Sabbath, then don't post anything on it, or respond to it. (AKA, "don't feet the trolls"). But don't fight against it, as you may be fighting against something greater.

There is a world-wide awakening to the 4th Commandment among believers, as the Spirit is leading us to acknowledge the day that our Creator Himself rested. Genesis 2:2 This was not a day selected by man, but by YHVH Himself.

The Reformation is not complete. There are many Catholic traditions in our churches that need to be removed, with the change of the Sabbath to Sunday being the greatest. Many people are now part of this Reformation.

The Anabaptists and other groups, such as the Seventh Day Adventist, the United Church of God, and many different types of Messianic groups are finding converts all over the world, mainly because they keep the Sabbath day.

This awakening is a logical consequence of following only 9 Commandments. Anyone who reads the Bible with an open mind can see that there is a fallacy of ignoring one of the 10 Commandments.

Even Christ said that the 10 Commandments were necessary for salvation:

Matthew 19:(16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

(18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

(19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Note that this list does not contain the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 10th Commandments, as these Commandments were well known, and not something that most people of that day had a problem with. Only now, do men seek to replace or destroy the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Commandments, which establishes our relationship with God.

To answer your original question:

So, my questions are:
Does your church community see itself as observing the Sabbath?
If so, how is the Sabbath observed? Is it only by worshipping on Sunday?
Or is it also by abstaining from work and resting?
If your church community does not see itself as observing the Sabbath, what are the justifications for not observing it?

Yes, we do.
We rest and meet in each other's homes.
No, Sunday is not the Sabbath day, no where in Scripture has this day been moved to Sunday.
Yes, we abstain from work to earn a living and rest. But if someone is in trouble, we help them regardless of the effort involved.
I found other people's justifications for not observing the Sabbath very interesting, although I had seen them before.

And, just as you have kindly asked me not to participate in a forum on the Sabbath, I would likewise ask anyone here not to call Sunday the Sabbath, unless they can prove that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday in Scripture, under the authority of YHVH or Christ. I think I have asked this question enough too.

Thanks,

John

[Josh]

Anabaptists are not Sabbitarians any more than they are vegetarians.

Outside of very liberal groups who interpret scripture very loosely, Anabaptists have a very high view of the entire New Testament.

What John is describing is a lot closer to something very different - basically keeping the old law and ignoring the new, but not even keeping the old properly.

For example a lot of things are important to do in the old law like keeping little scrolls of scripture in door posts, being careful not to have cheese and meat at the same time and so on.

[Bootstrap]

This is a forum for Anabaptists. Many Anabaptists have kept the Sabbath.

All Anabaptists accept the entire New Testament. The relationship between the Old Testament and New Testament really had to be worked out after Jesus rose again and the believers received the Holy Spirit. Galatians is really one of the clearest guides on this, especially when read together with Acts 15.

Like Adam, I don't have a problem with those who choose to celebrate the Jewish Sabbath. I find it a bit strange to keep the Jewish feasts but not Easter - I assume that you believe that Jesus died and rose again? But I find it especially strange that you keep asking us "by what authority" we act like orthodox Christians. The Jewish authorities asked Jesus "by what authority" at least several times, and sometimes this seems to rhyme. For instance:

And they came again to Jerusalem. And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, and they said to him, “By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do them?” Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question; answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. Was the baptism of John from heaven or from man? Answer me.” And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ But shall we say, ‘From man’?”—they were afraid of the people, for they all held that John really was a prophet. So they answered Jesus, “We do not know.” And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”

So let me try to imitate Jesus here. Was the teaching of Paul from heaven or from man? What about the teaching of the rest of the New Testament? Because the nub of the question is that we have very different beliefs about where this authority comes from. We also have very different beliefs about what the Bible is and the relationship between New Testament believers and the Old Testament.

[Bootstrap]

And, just as you have kindly asked me not to participate in a forum on the Sabbath, I would likewise ask anyone here not to call Sunday the Sabbath

So far, nobody in this thread has called Sunday the Sabbath. We have been calling it The Lord's Day. I've mentioned that at least several times now.

[Josh]

I have to keep very conscious of when Shabbat starts and ends, which essentially is a half hour of so before sunset in Jerusalem on Friday and a half hour after in Saturday.

I don't think anyone confuses that with Sunday. I do sometimes call Sunday the Lord's Day - although all days are his. I do think the day he resurrected is very special and worth remembering each week. When I am in a place where I need to work on Sunday because that's when the work week starts, I remember that that is when Jesus' new work also began.

[ken_sylvania]

This awakening is a logical consequence of following only 9 Commandments. Anyone who reads the Bible with an open mind can see that there is a fallacy of ignoring one of the 10 Commandments.
Even Christ said that the 10 Commandments were necessary for salvation:
Matthew 19:(16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
(19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Note that this list does not contain the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 10th Commandments, as these Commandments were well known, and not something that most people of that day had a problem with. Only now, do men seek to replace or destroy the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Commandments, which establishes our relationship with God.

Really??? You think most people in Jesus' day loved God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength (Jesus said this was the greatest commandment)? What evidence do you have that most people in Jesus' day did not have a problem with taking the name of the Lord in vain?

Jesus did not say that the 10 Commandments were necessary for salvation.
When we do as the Bereans did, and search the scriptures to find out whether the things that JohnHurt is teaching are so, we find out that they are not so.

One more thing - In the same conversation, Jesus told the young man that in order to be perfect he needed to sell his possessions. Do you apply that to your life as well? Maybe you better sell that farm....

[Josh]

I have 5 siblings that my parents adopted, and since there was not certainty about the date of their birth, an educated guess was made, and now they have a birth date that is used and celebrated.

RZ - wow! That is lot!

[Adam]

Gentlemen (and Ladies),

Thank you for your participation in this discussion. I have learned a lot. Bootstrap, your suggestion to read through Galatians again was most helpful. Josh, your reminder that, as Gentile Christians, we were never told to obey the Laws of Moses was also helpful. John, your participation was also very helpful in helping me answer the questions that I originally posted. Ultimately, I reject your arguments because you don’t recognize the entirety of the New Testament as inspired Scripture. Had your argument taken into account a serious consideration of Galatians and the other writings of Paul, I would have been much more open to what you had to say.

Having resolved to my satisfaction the questions I put forward in the OP, I will now leave this thread with a quote from Titus 3:9, which is a good reminder for myself and those of us who accept Paul’s words as Scripture:

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.