"Christ died for our sins"

General Christian Theology
silentreader
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by silentreader »

Hats Off wrote:Maybe - I suppose - I don't know - of course they did because I don't believe in predestination - but if not Judas, then who? If not Pilate, who? Did they have choice - you tell me. Does it make any difference to you and me today?
The had a choice because of what you don't believe in...somehow that sounds like Mennonite theology.
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cmbl
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by cmbl »

Didn't Jesus tell Pilate, "the one who handed me over to you is guilty of the greater sin?" (I would take that to mean Caiaphas.)

I am reminded of Joseph's words to his brothers: "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
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RZehr
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by RZehr »

Yes, each of those individuals had a choice. But for each one that refused, someone else eventually chose wrongly.
For all we know, the people that ultimately took part may have been 2nd, 3rd, 4rth option. And all the people before them chose better.

I don't think Gods plan hinged on any single one of these actors.
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Sudsy
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:God is God and we don't question Him. He alone is able to judge perfectly. We cannot judge perfectly so we will err if we tried to say God set the example so we can try to copy Him. So it is okay for God to rule as He will but not for us. We are to follow the example and teaching of Jesus and the apostles or the Word as it is given to us in the scriptures.

I have difficulty with the teaching that wicked men killed Jesus; it seems that we are being told that this was wrong. And yet God had this plan, and he needed people to carry out His plan. Jesus submitted to that plan: Pilate, Herod, the soldiers, the Chief Priests and the Pharisees, the mob, were all required to carry out God's plan. Can I condemn any of these people who made it possible for Jesus to die four our sins? These people were only fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah. I am not suggesting that any of them were innocent but someone had to take the necessary parts.
You make a good case, imo. And perhaps they were innocent. Jesus even said 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'. Was Jesus praying in the will of God when He prayed this ? Could this mean that violent acts carried out by humans that are part of God's plans and God's use of these humans, will not be held against those who commit these acts ? For instance, Christians who were involved with killings involving the stopping of Hitler or other tyrants throughout history ?

Any thoughts on the Piper 5 minute explanation ?
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silentreader
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by silentreader »

RZehr wrote:Yes, each of those individuals had a choice. But for each one that refused, someone else eventually chose wrongly.
For all we know, the people that ultimately took part may have been 2nd, 3rd, 4rth option. And all the people before them chose better.

I don't think Gods plan hinged on any single one of these actors.
So does that suggest that the timing of God's plan was dependent on somebody choosing to co-operate with it?
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RZehr
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by RZehr »

silentreader wrote:
RZehr wrote:Yes, each of those individuals had a choice. But for each one that refused, someone else eventually chose wrongly.
For all we know, the people that ultimately took part may have been 2nd, 3rd, 4rth option. And all the people before them chose better.

I don't think Gods plan hinged on any single one of these actors.
So does that suggest that the timing of God's plan was dependent on somebody choosing to co-operate with it?
Maybe it looks that way on the surface. God does "need" people to do his will. But since God knew what each person was going to do, he really wasn't dependent like we normally would use the term. And if we don't do his will, he uses someone else.

I also believe there was small aspects of the historical account that really weren't crucial in the big picture.

Getting into a little open theism and predestination here.
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silentreader
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by silentreader »

RZehr wrote:
silentreader wrote:
RZehr wrote:Yes, each of those individuals had a choice. But for each one that refused, someone else eventually chose wrongly.
For all we know, the people that ultimately took part may have been 2nd, 3rd, 4rth option. And all the people before them chose better.

I don't think Gods plan hinged on any single one of these actors.
So does that suggest that the timing of God's plan was dependent on somebody choosing to co-operate with it?
Maybe it looks that way on the surface. God does "need" people to do his will. But since God knew what each person was going to do, he really wasn't dependent like we normally would use the term. And if we don't do his will, he uses someone else.

I also believe there was small aspects of the historical account that really weren't crucial in the big picture.

Getting into a little open theism and predestination here.
Actually not.
My concern, (and this is possibly the wrong thread for it, but I don't plan to continue past this post), is that when we throw out what we understand to be the Calvinist concept of predestination, we need to have something Scripturally sound to replace it that still allows God to be sovereign. But this generally does not happen, and we are left with a God who rolls with the flow so to speak, one who deals with us according to foreknowledge only.
But I think Scripture shows God working both in foreknowledge and predetermination, and I have no idea what the proper balance is, but balance there is.
Some Scripture passages to consider, and I would include that startling non-Messianic prophecy in Isaiah....
Isaiah 44:28English Standard Version (ESV)
28 
who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,
    and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’
    and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Isaiah 45:1English Standard Version (ESV)
Cyrus, God's Instrument
45 
Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus,
    whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
    and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
    that gates may not be closed:
The disciples in Acts:
The Believers Pray for Boldness
23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,[a] said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
    and the peoples plot in vain?
26 
The kings of the earth set themselves,
    and the rulers were gathered together,
    against the Lord and against his Anointed’
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.


Paul in Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:3-14English Standard Version (ESV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[c] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[d] to the praise of his glory.


in Galatians;
Galatians 4:4-5English Standard Version (ESV)
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

and there would be others.
Let us not think to limit God's hand to man's whim.
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Wade
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by Wade »

silentreader wrote:
Hats Off wrote:God is God and we don't question Him. He alone is able to judge perfectly. We cannot judge perfectly so we will err if we tried to say God set the example so we can try to copy Him. So it is okay for God to rule as He will but not for us. We are to follow the example and teaching of Jesus and the apostles or the Word as it is given to us in the scriptures.

I have difficulty with the teaching that wicked men killed Jesus; it seems that we are being told that this was wrong. And yet God had this plan, and he needed people to carry out His plan. Jesus submitted to that plan: Pilate, Herod, the soldiers, the Chief Priests and the Pharisees, the mob, were all required to carry out God's plan. Can I condemn any of these people who made it possible for Jesus to die four our sins? These people were only fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah. I am not suggesting that any of them were innocent but someone had to take the necessary parts.
So did they have a choice?
I realize I am jumping in out of turn here...

But, did we not all have a choice?

Somehow and I cannot explain how - I was there...
It was me that put Christ on that cross. :cry:

I chose sin and disobedience.
God knew that we would...

[bible]Romans 5,6-12[/bible]
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Sudsy
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by Sudsy »

I lean towards the view that the future is to some degree open. God will work out His plans as He has predetermined but He has allowed us to make choices and He makes use of these choices (which are open and ones God knows as possibilities) to fulfill His plans. God can be all knowing (omniscient) and at the same time be flexible in how and when He works out His plans. God doesn't need to know everything into the future on what choices we make and yet He knows all the possibilities of choice we could make and how He will work with them. To me, that indicates just how powerful God is.

If this sounds closer to the Anabaptist Greg Boyd view, it is -

So, yes we have choices. God took a risk, so to speak, by giving us the ability to chose. But do these choices alter God's plans ? Overall plan, no but on the way to that overall plan, yes. Various places in scripture we read that this occurs. What God intended to do at times, He changed. God never changes Himself but He changes His ways such as He does in a response to prayer or how we repent, etc.

Well, getting off topic a bit here but when choice is brought up this comes to mind. Not a traditional view for sure. Neither Calvinistic or Arminian.
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Wade
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Re: "Christ died for our sins"

Post by Wade »

[bible]Isaiah,53[/bible]
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