Reformed Theology

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ohio jones
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Reformed Theology

Post by ohio jones »

Extracted from the thread on Penance, since it seems more appropriate to handle it elsewhere:
Heirbyadoption wrote:The only downside to Alistair is his Calvinism. Otherwise, I could listen to his Highland brogue all day long.
Josh wrote:As far as Parkside goes, I have little use for a congregation that teaches once saved always saved, thinks you are predestined to heaven or hell, and doesn't preach holiness or obedience to Bible commands like the veiling.
Valerie wrote:Josh for the record, I have never heard him preach any of the theology you mentioned above- we are not once saved always saved Believers
Sudsy wrote:Valerie, Begg's series on James is excellent. I used in in leading a MB adult bible class a few years back. We used some Sproul and Charles Stanley and other non-Anabaptist teachers in our studies. We didn't have those fears of Reform doctrine and it seldom surfaced in these lessons. When it did we dealt with it.

I recommend for those who can get past the Reformed handle to check out Begg's sermons and see for themselves what he really teaches - http://www.parksidechurch.com/learn/res ... er/sermon/
Valerie wrote:To be honest, I don't really understand what Reformed handle means- when you come from the more Evangelical/Pentecostal movement like I have, we didn't even discuss the Reformation- or 'reformed doctrine'.
Reformed Theology = Calvinism. The whole tulip, not just the single petal of OSAS/perseverance.

I haven't listened to Begg's brogue very much at all, so really don't have insight into how obvious his Reformed leanings are. But the sermon on Jonah that was referenced in another thread sounded interesting, so I looked that up and jumped into it at random, listening while doing other things. It was good for a while, but then I heard some pretty obvious Calvinism, and decided I had better things to listen to.

Anabaptists, and Pentecostals too for that matter, are generally non-Calvinist (unreformed :) ) in their viewpoint, though there are exceptions.

Reformed theology is currently experiencing a resurgence. In my opinion, it's worth being aware of this movement so that participation in it, should you choose to do so, is an informed choice rather than an unintentional ride on the bandwagon.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by KingdomBuilder »

What I've found is that I have hard times identifying what is Reformed and what is not... Really all I've been brought up in, and all around me, is Reformed. The only non-Reformed options in my area would be Catholics, JW, and Mormons. None of which I look to for proper doctrine, anyhow :?

It's hard to know and be aware of different doctrinal ideas when your surroundings are theologically homogenous.

One huge reason I ended up on MD/ MN.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

Also worth mentioning: there's a whole spectrum of Reformed thought, not everyone who sees themselves as Calvinist or Reformed believes the same things. (I see myself as neither, but know people within both traditions.) And there is also really good stuff from people who are definitely Calvinist, I like a lot of what John Piper teaches about devotion to God, obedience, holiness, etc.

And there are good Christians whose theology does not make sense to me. Let's not write Catholics or Calvinists off as Christians just because we disagree with their theology. Systematic theology is not the most important part of our faith.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Sudsy »

Not sure what this thread is focusing on but I will share a recent experience around Reform theology.

For the past 2 years prior to returning to the MB church, I spent each Sunday and a few men's bible studies in a Baptist, 'TULIP' believing fellowship. I especially enjoyed the expository bible teaching of the pastor. We would take a book from the bible and walk through it each Sunday verse by verse. Wonderful ! And the applications to following Jesus today were very challenging.

Over these past 2 years, seldom did I hear preaching from a TULIP stance although the sovereignty of God was strongly pointed out. When the subject did come up, for instance, whether we choose God or God chooses us, and the latter was preached, I got to understand more clearly what was meant by this and how a Calvinist believes we are saved. I had coffee with the pastor at times and I would challenge his views and he mine. Regardless of how God goes about saving people, we both agreed in many areas. For instance, salvation is of the Lord. The TULIP system has many scriptures that can be used to support this logic. Likewise there are scriptures that don't support this logic. My biggest arguments were with regard to how we viewed the character of God in how He acts in a sovereign way and whether love can be imposed to truly be loved.

I believe most people repent of their sin and are born again without any knowledge of the TULIP theology. Whether Calvinist or not the same core Gospel belief is preached to whosoever will may come. Just how this willingness happens is not an issue at that time. And then is this Gospel preached as a 'get out of hell free card' or is it a life changing Gospel that requires a faith that generates fruit that prove it is a living faith. This pastor preached the latter and to check out our own salvation whether it is a living faith or just some religious acts we were putting on. Do we have a relationship with God or not ? This is the primary focus that kept me there for 2 years. I got to appreciate some very God loving believers who have experienced becoming a new creation and are continuing on in their walk with God.

Just sharing this as to say we should be careful in how we look at Reform, Evangelical, Roman Catholic, Orthodox and other understandings within Christianity as we together make up The Church. I cannot accept the TULIP theology myself yet I believe if God is so gracious to accept them into His family, I had better watch that I am not condemning them in their understandings. None of us have the whole truth about God and His ways nailed down. However, if someone does preach another gospel that is not about Jesus death and resurrection in saving us from our sins and giving us eternal life, then that is another story.

I'm glad I had this experience and it helped me to adjust my attitude about others who God has accepted into His family.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

KingdomBuilder wrote:What I've found is that I have hard times identifying what is Reformed and what is not... Really all I've been brought up in, and all around me, is Reformed. The only non-Reformed options in my area would be Catholics, JW, and Mormons. None of which I look to for proper doctrine, anyhow :?

It's hard to know and be aware of different doctrinal ideas when your surroundings are theologically homogenous.

One huge reason I ended up on MD/ MN.
It is actually fairly easy to spot reformed theology. IF they say things such as "A person is regenerated before they believe" than they are reformed. They tend to minimize the role of man's free moral agency, replacing it with "God's sovereign choice." One pet reformed doctrine that I find particularly unbiblical and offensive is Limited Atonement, that Jesus really did not die for the sins of all, rather a predetermined set of the elect. (Not withstanding 1 John 2:1+2) Hence there are people who CANNOT believe.

Reformed theology is a logical system, not a Biblical one, it is based on the absolute sovereignty of God in all things, other things Like Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement proceed from this rather than from Biblical sources. Many advocates of these views would disagree with my take on it, but I feel I am on solid ground here.

35 years ago, it would have been rare indeed to find a Southern Baptist church that was highly reformed, and if you suggested things like "A person is regenerated before they believe" you would have been paid a visit by a few of the deacons, now the SBC is mostly reformed. It came from their seminaries, with reformed professors more or less being the only ones they tend to hire. I could suggest a number of causes for this, but personally i see people with highly reformed views attracted to academic pursuits, and people with other views attracted to other forms of ministers.

I was appalled when my daughter, who was attending a Christian and Missionary Alliance college (Toccoa Falls) came home with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology as her textbook! This guy is highly reformed (Apologies to undershepheard, who may disagree with how reformed he is, I am comparing him to the C&MA). I called the school, and was told it was the only book they could find! I have two others on my shelf, my guess it is what her prof. used in school himself. It is generally moving from academia to the churches. In many circles this is the seen as the only intellectually respectable view.

Names other than Piper you may run into are:

Wayne Grudem-Was a prod. at Trinity for years, now at Phoenix Seminary. Author of many books, including being one of the general editors of the ESV Bible.

Bruce Ware- At Southern Baptist theological seminary, with Dr. Grudem above a proponent of a view of the Trinity called "Eternal Subordination of the Son." I have grave concerns about this view and its ultimate destination.

http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2016/ ... n-of-t.php

There are many others. I don't think these views are at all comparable with Anabaptist views on theology.

J.M.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Reformed theology is a logical system, not a Biblical one
Well said. I think this to be the case with a lot of the beliefs in the Protestant churches. Not all, but many. I feel it is a permeating mindset that results in many trickle-down issues.

I see a lot of human reasoning that seems, as you say, logical. When held up to scripture, though, there is no support to be found.

I've encountered this in sermons and among congregation members for my whole life.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by MaxPC »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
It is actually fairly easy to spot reformed theology. IF they say things such as "A person is regenerated before they believe" than they are reformed. They tend to minimize the role of man's free moral agency, replacing it with "God's sovereign choice." One pet reformed doctrine that I find particularly unbiblical and offensive is Limited Atonement, that Jesus really did not die for the sins of all, rather a predetermined set of the elect. (Not withstanding 1 John 2:1+2) Hence there are people who CANNOT believe.

Reformed theology is a logical system, not a Biblical one, it is based on the absolute sovereignty of God in all things, other things Like Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement proceed from this rather than from Biblical sources. Many advocates of these views would disagree with my take on it, but I feel I am on solid ground here.

35 years ago, it would have been rare indeed to find a Southern Baptist church that was highly reformed, and if you suggested things like "A person is regenerated before they believe" you would have been paid a visit by a few of the deacons, now the SBC is mostly reformed. It came from their seminaries, with reformed professors more or less being the only ones they tend to hire. I could suggest a number of causes for this, but personally i see people with highly reformed views attracted to academic pursuits, and people with other views attracted to other forms of ministers.

I was appalled when my daughter, who was attending a Christian and Missionary Alliance college (Toccoa Falls) came home with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology as her textbook! This guy is highly reformed (Apologies to undershepheard, who may disagree with how reformed he is, I am comparing him to the C&MA). I called the school, and was told it was the only book they could find! I have two others on my shelf, my guess it is what her prof. used in school himself. It is generally moving from academia to the churches. In many circles this is the seen as the only intellectually respectable view.

Names other than Piper you may run into are:

Wayne Grudem-Was a prod. at Trinity for years, now at Phoenix Seminary. Author of many books, including being one of the general editors of the ESV Bible.

Bruce Ware- At Southern Baptist theological seminary, with Dr. Grudem above a proponent of a view of the Trinity called "Eternal Subordination of the Son." I have grave concerns about this view and its ultimate destination.

http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2016/ ... n-of-t.php

There are many others. I don't think these views are at all comparable with Anabaptist views on theology.

J.M.
Spot on. Well said.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:It is actually fairly easy to spot reformed theology. IF they say things such as "A person is regenerated before they believe" than they are reformed. They tend to minimize the role of man's free moral agency, replacing it with "God's sovereign choice."
Isn't this broader than just Reformed theology? I think most churches that practice infant baptism have a theology that approaches this - after all, why would you baptize infants if you didn't think it does something spiritually useful? And this has always been one of the major dividing lines for me, infant baptism doesn't seem scriptural to me, it is not the approach I would choose.

The standard Reformed formulations for infant baptism compare it to circumcision, and call it the "sign and seal" of God's covenant. For instance:
It is well for us to pause and confront ourselves with this fact: that by divine appointment and express command the sign and seal of spiritual realities -- realities that could only be applied to men through the gracious operations of the Spirit of God -- was administered to infants.

Now we can anticipate the objection: All this is conceded, but of what avail for the doctrine in question? What has all this to do with the question of infant baptism?

It so happens that circumcision signified basically the same thing as baptism. That baptism signifies purification from the defilement of sin by the regeneration of the Spirit and purification from the guilt of sin by the righteousness of Christ -- the righteousness of faith -- appears on the very face of the New Testament. That, we have found already, is the real meaning of circumcision. There is, therefore, a basic identity of meaning and signification. Circumcision, bearing the same basic meaning as baptism, was administered to infants who were born in the covenant relation and privilege flowing from the covenant made with Abraham.
The Catholic Catechism says this:
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."
1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.
1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.
The Methodist Church has a variant on this that is distinctly different from the Reformed approach, based on prevenient grace:
Why Baptize Babies?

From the earliest times, children and infants were baptized and included in the church. As scriptural authority for this ancient tradition, some scholars cite Jesus’ words, “Let the little children come to me…for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs” (Mark 10:14). However, a more consistent argument is that baptism, as a means of grace, signifies God’s initiative in the process of salvation. John Wesley preached “prevenient grace,” the grace that works in our lives before we are aware of it, bringing us to faith. The baptism of children and their inclusion in the church before they can respond with their own confirmation of faith is a vivid and compelling witness to prevenient grace.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Neto »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:....
I was appalled when my daughter, who was attending a Christian and Missionary Alliance college (Toccoa Falls) came home with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology as her textbook! This guy is highly reformed (Apologies to undershepheard, who may disagree with how reformed he is, I am comparing him to the C&MA). I called the school, and was told it was the only book they could find! I have two others on my shelf, my guess it is what her prof. used in school himself.
....
J.M.
I graduated from a C&MA college (St Paul Bible college, now Crown College), and one of the courses I took there used a Reformed counselling book that stated that "If you are giving counsel to an unbeliever, you cannot tell them that Christ died for them, because you don't know that." But our professor (an active C&M A minister) pointed it out on the first day of class, saying that the rest of the book had good teaching, that we just needed to be on guard against the false doctrine.

Our congregation is now planning to use SS material from David C. Cook. I wasn't sure what their theological bent was, so did a bit of research on it. Apparently they heavily back Calvinism. What to do?
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:One pet reformed doctrine that I find particularly unbiblical and offensive is Limited Atonement, that Jesus really did not die for the sins of all, rather a predetermined set of the elect. (Not withstanding 1 John 2:1+2) Hence there are people who CANNOT believe.

Reformed theology is a logical system, not a Biblical one, it is based on the absolute sovereignty of God in all things, other things Like Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement proceed from this rather than from Biblical sources. Many advocates of these views would disagree with my take on it, but I feel I am on solid ground here.
I would put it this way: If you try to force the Bible into a formal logical system, you wind up distorting it. Limited Atonement is perhaps a flagrant example of that, teaching that Jesus did not die for everyone. I think that teaching distorts what Jesus did on the cross because human beings have a hard time logically understanding things that only God really understands.

You get similar distortions if you try to force the Bible into a systematic ethics, a comprehensive set of do and don't rules that tell us precisely what to do in every situation.
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