Reformed Theology

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Bootstrap
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

Hmmmm ... if anyone has figured out all the details of how God's sovereignty and man's free will work together, please let me know. So far, I'm still leaving that all up to God.
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cmbl
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by cmbl »

Bootstrap wrote:This may be a little like discussing what Mennonites believe about the exception clause. We don't all believe the same thing. Neither do the Reformed.

I know people in the Reformed tradition who very much believe that people make real choices. They just believe that God knows which choices they will make, and that these two things do not contradict each other.
(emphasis mine)
Many many Christians outside Reformed tradition believe the in God's foreknowledge (the statement I bolded).
I think that Reformed theology necessarily goes further than that, and says that God has foreordained all that shall come to pass. I consider fore-ordination a stronger claim than foreknowledge.

If I may be so bold, I suspect that you find yourself in a corner of the Reformed tradition sufficiently "liberal" to not be sticklers about Reformed theology.
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cmbl
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by cmbl »

cmbl wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:This may be a little like discussing what Mennonites believe about the exception clause. We don't all believe the same thing. Neither do the Reformed.

I know people in the Reformed tradition who very much believe that people make real choices. They just believe that God knows which choices they will make, and that these two things do not contradict each other.
(emphasis mine)
Many many Christians outside Reformed tradition believe that God has foreknowledge (the statement I bolded).
I think that Reformed theology necessarily goes further than that, and says that God has foreordained all that shall come to pass. I consider fore-ordination a stronger claim than foreknowledge.

If I may be so bold, I suspect that you find yourself in a corner of the Reformed tradition sufficiently "liberal" to not be sticklers about Reformed theology.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

cmbl wrote:If I may be so bold, I suspect that you find yourself in a corner of the Reformed tradition sufficiently "liberal" to not be sticklers about Reformed theology.
My current church is hardly liberal, but it is much more along the lines of Karl Barth than John Calvin. If you heard the sermon given recently on Church and State, you might have thought you were in a Mennonite church. You would probably be quite at home with our understanding of gay marriage and the authority of the Bible.

But when I was part of University Reformed Church in the 1970s, I really did encounter quite a few people who considered themselves hardcore Calvinists but did not think that God's sovereignty meant we don't make real choices. This was Michigan, full of card carrying Five Point Calvinists, and many of them would agree with this:
I know people in the Reformed tradition who very much believe that people make real choices. They just believe that God knows which choices they will make, and that these two things do not contradict each other.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

cmbl wrote:
Neto wrote: Our congregation is now planning to use SS material from David C. Cook. I wasn't sure what their theological bent was, so did a bit of research on it. Apparently they heavily back Calvinism. What to do?
Josh wrote: I'm puzzled by the drift by BMA type of churches into Calvinism. I have no idea why it is happening.
I admit that this is speculative, but couldn't it be from being in Neto's church's position and deciding to "eat the meat and throw away the bones?" Over time, some of the bones are transmuted into meat.

Perhaps that's how it's happening, not why.
May I make another suggestion?

Most of the slick, glossy, multi-media enabled material comes from the large publishing houses that produce material they perceive will appeal to the largest audience (Cook), are from a denominational related publishing house that is tied to a denomination that has gone reformed (Lifeway, SBC) or is ardently reformed from it's beginnings (Crossway).

Seriously, I used a series in my old church, from Francis Chan called "we are Church" , (Thomas Cook). It did not contain any objectionable doctrine, but it soon became apparent that the teacher would have to do absolutely nothing! Just the solution for a teacher that does not like to prepare. I used like half of it.

Also, I don't know if BMAs use of the "Danvers Statement" is a symptom or a cause, but the vast majority of the board of CBMW are from institutions or groups that are clearly reformed. Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, Patterson, Knight,Jones Hunt,Heimbach, Grudem, Ware, Duncan, the gangs all here. Presbyterian, SBC, Sovereign Grace, and Piper / Grudem.

I would personally feel that the 1963 confession is fine, but I am not BMA, and have no insight as to why they went this path. Does anyone here?

J.M.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Bootstrap wrote:
cmbl wrote:If I may be so bold, I suspect that you find yourself in a corner of the Reformed tradition sufficiently "liberal" to not be sticklers about Reformed theology.
My current church is hardly liberal, but it is much more along the lines of Karl Barth than John Calvin. If you heard the sermon given recently on Church and State, you might have thought you were in a Mennonite church. You would probably be quite at home with our understanding of gay marriage and the authority of the Bible.

But when I was part of University Reformed Church in the 1970s, I really did encounter quite a few people who considered themselves hardcore Calvinists but did not think that God's sovereignty meant we don't make real choices. This was Michigan, full of card carrying Five Point Calvinists, and many of them would agree with this:
I know people in the Reformed tradition who very much believe that people make real choices. They just believe that God knows which choices they will make, and that these two things do not contradict each other.
Reformed is clearly a spectrum. It's their Soteriology I have an issue with.

J.M.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:Hmmmm ... if anyone has figured out all the details of how God's sovereignty and man's free will work together, please let me know. So far, I'm still leaving that all up to God.
Yes, God in His sovereignty took the risk to chose to give man the ability to chose and right at the beginning man chose to disobey God. There that was easy. :lol: Sorry, I know what you are getting at.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by ohio jones »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:Also, I don't know if BMAs use of the "Danvers Statement" is a symptom or a cause, but the vast majority of the board of CBMW are from institutions or groups that are clearly reformed. Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, Patterson, Knight,Jones Hunt,Heimbach, Grudem, Ware, Duncan, the gangs all here. Presbyterian, SBC, Sovereign Grace, and Piper / Grudem.

I would personally feel that the 1963 confession is fine, but I am not BMA, and have no insight as to why they went this path. Does anyone here?
When BMA began, many of the leaders came from CMC, which at the time recognized the Danvers Statement (it has since been replaced by our own Statement of Practice). So it may have been carried over from that.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

ohio jones wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Also, I don't know if BMAs use of the "Danvers Statement" is a symptom or a cause, but the vast majority of the board of CBMW are from institutions or groups that are clearly reformed. Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, Patterson, Knight,Jones Hunt,Heimbach, Grudem, Ware, Duncan, the gangs all here. Presbyterian, SBC, Sovereign Grace, and Piper / Grudem.

I would personally feel that the 1963 confession is fine, but I am not BMA, and have no insight as to why they went this path. Does anyone here?
When BMA began, many of the leaders came from CMC, which at the time recognized the Danvers Statement (it has since been replaced by our own Statement of Practice). So it may have been carried over from that.
Any idea why CMC used it?

J.M.
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Re: Reformed Theology

Post by undershepherd »

The Danvers statement is a supplement to the 1963 or equivalent statement of faith that BMA requires all its congregations to hold to. It goes into more detail regarding Biblical sexuality and roles of men and women than the 1963 confession does a better job of addressing some of the more modern dynamics surrounding this issue.
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