Disordered Cults

General Christian Theology
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Bootstrap
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Amen. There's no rule that says we have to reply to every topic or every person.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
But I do think there should be a rule that if you say something, and someone raises a concern about whether or not it is true, you should respond to it. Perhaps we can't enforce it, but we probably should notice when someone doesn't do that and wonder why. This is particularly serious if you make direct or implied claims about other people's character, and are not available for a serious discussion of those claims.

And there should definitely be a rule against heckling people you refuse to engage. Not just me, but several other people. I've even been told about PMs campaigning about particular people - not me, other people.

This is abusive behavior. It makes it a lot harder to listen to each other. It makes it a lot harder to establish an atmosphere where it is safe to share with each other, or where truth can reasonably be pursued.

If you are 100% not accountable to questions on this forum, Max, and don't even respond to the people you are mocking, how should we take you seriously?
Last edited by Bootstrap on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote:This is a good overview.
Personality characteristics of a cult leader.
I found this quite fascinating, as it describes (from my own and from other ex-members observations) the characteristics of the former elder of the Bruderhof Communities. In a real sense it gives me some hope for reform of the organization if the cult-like characteristics were a result of the leader's personality disorder. Though I have long observed of the Bruderhof a "group neurosis" that reflects the neurosis of the top leader. It is as if the personality of the leader becomes the personality of the organization, making me wonder if the Bruderhof is incurably corrupted.
Everyone wondered the same thing about a CC religious order in recent years. Fortunately the Magisterium sent in an Apostolic Administrator who cleared out the support structure for the dysfunctional leader and put new leadership in place through a fair election. A lot of prayer and hope out there that this can and will be saved as there were some very good priests in that order. Some left and became incardinated in (assigned to) a diocese. There was a grace that came from that situation: awareness of cult personalities and the warning signs of a cult were placed front and center within Catholic conversations.

We'll pray for the Bruderhof to have a similar reorganization and a proper revival of authentic discipleship to Jesus. ;) Hopefully the conversation about cult personalities and cult warning signs will continue as this can happen in any fellowship/denomination.

If I'm not mistaken, the Apostle Paul touched on cults in his epistles. I haven't the time to doing a search for the next week or two but perhaps this thread can continue with citations from Paul's writings on the topic?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Bootstrap
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

Fascinating. This behavior may not be constructive, but it sure is interesting to observe.
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Josh »

On this topic, I'd like to mix in a request for prayer. I'll tell the much longer story another day; here's the executive summary, and also a peek into what God is doing in my own community, my life, and that of my neighbour and my brethren.

A while ago, my little brother nearly got mixed up in a pretty destructive cult. It left the church my parents attended and where my ex-wife grew up in church and took most of the youth group. The cult leaders were originally the youth pastor and his wife, and they eventually indoctrinated the young people that they were their "spiritual parents" now, and to cut off contact with their families if they disagreed with their new "spiritual parents". So one Sunday, suddenly over half of the teenagers and people in their 20s were gone.

(I never got sucked into it because I wasn't really part of that church, and I didn't believe in God anyway. Their members tried to prophesy over me and get "visions", but they never spoke one peep about all the sin I was involved in. They thought I was wealthy, so prophesied I would make all kinds of money. I was secretly wishing they would have insight into all the debt I was in, not just the money I was making and the way it was visible I lived an upper class lifestyle. And sometimes I secretly hoped someone would call me to repentance, but it just reaffirmed my believe that God and the supernatural don't exist.)

My brother ended up making out along with 1 friend and that friend's girlfriend. That 1 friend had evidence of some immorality within the group, and that made the difference for my little brother not staying in it.

Fast-forward about 13 years later. Last Sunday, someone invited me to Easter dinner, which turned out to be at a buffet. I decided to go anyway. The family I was meeting with had a daughter who runs a piano / voice studio and she has a few vocal instructors on staff. I've been looking for a new one, and asked her if she has someone who would be good to instruct a group of a few of us who want to get better at singing. So she handed me her phone with the person's name and number in her contacts and then said "I need to put her new name, 'Smith', in".

I went "Hmm - I used to have a friend by the name of John Smith. But I bet there's no coincidence." "Oh, that's her husband's name. She goes to 'Christian Fellowship'." My jaw about dropped! I spent the next few minutes explaining what had happened with that group, and also felt urged to ask them to pray for the people in that group to come out of the cult-like control they have been subject to.

Long story short... we'll probably sign up for some voice lessons, and there's an open house at that studio in a few weeks. Chances are I'll see that vocal teacher and her husband, whom I haven't seen in 13 years. The people in that group live in a lot of fear. They are taught they're the only one true church, and that Christians need to seek to find the one true church. And that a true church has tongues, signs and wonders, etc. They are also taught that if they leave that church they forfeit their salvation permanently.

Well, in God's providence the pastor I was sitting with happens to be a Pentecostal pastor who does believe in "one true church" doctrine, and really believes in things like tongues, but is also part of a denomination that is a lot healthier and a lot less cult-like (it has millions of members and thousands of congregations and does not view its organisation as being the only place people can be born again). And he has a small church plant not too far from where many of those folks live. God could very well be creating a path out for these people without having to abandon of their doctrines at once - which is often very, very difficult for people transitioning out of a cult.
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Re: Disordered Cults

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Bootstrap wrote:Fascinating. This behavior may not be constructive, but it sure is interesting to observe.
yep
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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

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Hats Off wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Fascinating. This behavior may not be constructive, but it sure is interesting to observe.
yep
Hats Off: have you encountered some cases of cult-like behavior?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Hats Off »

Google "Enos Bauman" or "Gladstone Mennonites" for an example. I have not had direct contact but know some of the families.
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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote:Google "Enos Bauman" or "Gladstone Mennonites" for an example. I have not had direct contact but know some of the families.
Thank you. :up:

The reference I made to a religious order was the Legionaries of Christ and their founder Marcial Maciel Degollado. It's a tangled tale of pride, spiritual abuse and degradation. Degollado never repented because to the end, he claimed he was innocent in spite of the overwhelming witness statements and evidence. The Pope declared him unrepentant which in essence said "no hope of heaven" in Catholic World. The Magisterium sent an Apostolic Administrator who is working to save the "healthy" people of that group. Not everyone was part of the disease; he's cutting out the diseased tissue so that the healthy tissue has a chance to live. It was several of the priests who blew the whistle on Degollado and started "the cure".
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Bootstrap
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:On this topic, I'd like to mix in a request for prayer. I'll tell the much longer story another day; here's the executive summary, and also a peek into what God is doing in my own community, my life, and that of my neighbour and my brethren.
Thanks for sharing this.
Josh wrote:Long story short... we'll probably sign up for some voice lessons, and there's an open house at that studio in a few weeks. Chances are I'll see that vocal teacher and her husband, whom I haven't seen in 13 years. The people in that group live in a lot of fear. They are taught they're the only one true church, and that Christians need to seek to find the one true church. And that a true church has tongues, signs and wonders, etc. They are also taught that if they leave that church they forfeit their salvation permanently.

Well, in God's providence the pastor I was sitting with happens to be a Pentecostal pastor who does believe in "one true church" doctrine, and really believes in things like tongues, but is also part of a denomination that is a lot healthier and a lot less cult-like (it has millions of members and thousands of congregations and does not view its organisation as being the only place people can be born again). And he has a small church plant not too far from where many of those folks live. God could very well be creating a path out for these people without having to abandon of their doctrines at once - which is often very, very difficult for people transitioning out of a cult.
I will pray for you. And I assume others will be praying too.
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Joy »

Within the setting of Christendom, the actual doctrines that are usually attacked by a cult are the authority of Scripture, and who Jesus is--His deity and His humanity.
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