Disordered Cults

General Christian Theology
appleman2006
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by appleman2006 »

I do not doubt that there are conservative groups out there that would have almost these exact characteristics to the point that they would "fit like a glove" and I for one would be very uncomfortable within that type of group.

Having said that, I do believe the term "cult" gets thrown around way to loosely at times these days. As hatsoff says, there are many degrees.
Also I might add that with society and general Christendom's swing towards individualism and the whole me society anything close to a brotherhood philosophy is going to appear somewhat cultish to some, in comparison. I do think we have to be aware of that reality.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

appleman2006 wrote:I do not doubt that there are conservative groups out there that would have almost these exact characteristics to the point that they would "fit like a glove" and I for one would be very uncomfortable within that type of group.

Having said that, I do believe the term "cult" gets thrown around way to loosely at times these days. As hatsoff says, there are many degrees.
Also I might add that with society and general Christendom's swing towards individualism and the whole me society anything close to a brotherhood philosophy is going to appear somewhat cultish to some, in comparison. I do think we have to be aware of that reality.
Both concerns are important.

Appleman - when do you start getting concerned about a group?
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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

appleman2006 wrote:I do not doubt that there are conservative groups out there that would have almost these exact characteristics to the point that they would "fit like a glove" and I for one would be very uncomfortable within that type of group.

Having said that, I do believe the term "cult" gets thrown around way to loosely at times these days. As hatsoff says, there are many degrees.
Also I might add that with society and general Christendom's swing towards individualism and the whole me society anything close to a brotherhood philosophy is going to appear somewhat cultish to some, in comparison. I do think we have to be aware of that reality.
Indeed, any term can be used to further someone's agenda and not in a good way.

In that list though, it says that there's a number of criteria that have to be met together in order to even begin to qualify as a disordered cult.

For me personally, I don't get concerned until the members are forced to sever all ties and communications from the rest of their friends and families ... Red Alert!
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appleman2006
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by appleman2006 »

Bootstrap wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:I do not doubt that there are conservative groups out there that would have almost these exact characteristics to the point that they would "fit like a glove" and I for one would be very uncomfortable within that type of group.

Having said that, I do believe the term "cult" gets thrown around way to loosely at times these days. As hatsoff says, there are many degrees.
Also I might add that with society and general Christendom's swing towards individualism and the whole me society anything close to a brotherhood philosophy is going to appear somewhat cultish to some, in comparison. I do think we have to be aware of that reality.
Both concerns are important.

Appleman - when do you start getting concerned about a group?
That is a really good question and I think I would need to think it through before giving a really good answer. I sure that the answer I come up with would convince some that I am already influenced so much by modern individualism that my answer is meaningless.

I think for me a key point would be as to whether the type of brotherhood being practiced is really truly Biblical brotherhood. By that I mean:
1. Are all member's opinions being taken into consideration when decision's are made?
2. Outside of direct Biblical mandates is the brotherhood flexible over time in their demands of each other so that they have positions that really do reflect the needs of the group in each generation?
3. Are certain people's opinions given more weight just because of who they are?
4. Is there clear evidence of servant leadership within the group?
5. Is love of the brotherhood of larger importance than maintaining an exact dogma.
6. Is there a recognition of where the lines of culture and personal preference cross with the really important things in life and a willingness to accept each other's cultural differences in a nonjudgmental or non self righteous way?

This is just off the top of my head and not at all definitive. I would be open to an expansion or even correction of any of these points as well as the list being lengthened.
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appleman2006
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by appleman2006 »

MaxPC wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:I do not doubt that there are conservative groups out there that would have almost these exact characteristics to the point that they would "fit like a glove" and I for one would be very uncomfortable within that type of group.

Having said that, I do believe the term "cult" gets thrown around way to loosely at times these days. As hatsoff says, there are many degrees.
Also I might add that with society and general Christendom's swing towards individualism and the whole me society anything close to a brotherhood philosophy is going to appear somewhat cultish to some, in comparison. I do think we have to be aware of that reality.
Indeed, any term can be used to further someone's agenda and not in a good way.

In that list though, it says that there's a number of criteria that have to be met together in order to even begin to qualify as a disordered cult.

For me personally, I don't get concerned until the members are forced to sever all ties and communications from the rest of their friends and families ... Red Alert!
For sure. I also get concerned when a group either by direct statement or by implications gives the impression that they are the only group that will be found acceptable to God. They may still interact socially or on a commercial basis with others but they are simply to "good" to ever actually see any value in other groups outside of that
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Bootstrap
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:For me personally, I don't get concerned until the members are forced to sever all ties and communications from the rest of their friends and families ... Red Alert!
In the cult I described, we were not required to cut all ties with friends and families, though we had so many commitments that you didn't really have a lot of time for those other relationships.

But we were required to overlook obvious falsehoods, and be shamed if we did not. We were required to adopt arbitrary practices that became identity markers but were not found in the Bible. And we were told stories about the credentials and accomplishments of one of the leaders that were simply not true - he did not have a license to practice psychotherapy, he did not know Greek, he drank too much (and we were supposed to overlook that). Most of the women wound up on anti-depressants. And the rules for leaders were quite different than the rules for anyone else.

When it became clear that he was practicing psychotherapy without a license, lying about his credentials, and pressuring a married woman he was counseling to have sex with him, that was too much. A small group of us started looking at other things, and found that the reason he was now being chauffeured was that he had lost his driver's license driving high speeds late at night, he had also pressured other women to have sex with him, etc. So we gathered this information up with plenty of evidence and took it to the elders, confidentially and without making any demands except "we think this is important information for you to consider about this leader".

We were instantly expelled and shunned. Announcements were made about what dangerous and deceptive people we were. We did not publicize this information, but it came out a year later and they had to let that leader go.

So I suspect there are other red flags people should watch out for. Appleman's list looks like a good start.
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Wade
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Wade »

appleman2006 wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:I do not doubt that there are conservative groups out there that would have almost these exact characteristics to the point that they would "fit like a glove" and I for one would be very uncomfortable within that type of group.

Having said that, I do believe the term "cult" gets thrown around way to loosely at times these days. As hatsoff says, there are many degrees.
Also I might add that with society and general Christendom's swing towards individualism and the whole me society anything close to a brotherhood philosophy is going to appear somewhat cultish to some, in comparison. I do think we have to be aware of that reality.
Both concerns are important.

Appleman - when do you start getting concerned about a group?
That is a really good question and I think I would need to think it through before giving a really good answer. I sure that the answer I come up with would convince some that I am already influenced so much by modern individualism that my answer is meaningless.

I think for me a key point would be as to whether the type of brotherhood being practiced is really truly Biblical brotherhood. By that I mean:
1. Are all member's opinions being taken into consideration when decision's are made?
2. Outside of direct Biblical mandates is the brotherhood flexible over time in their demands of each other so that they have positions that really do reflect the needs of the group in each generation?
3. Are certain people's opinions given more weight just because of who they are?
4. Is there clear evidence of servant leadership within the group?
5. Is love of the brotherhood of larger importance than maintaining an exact dogma.
6. Is there a recognition of where the lines of culture and personal preference cross with the really important things in life and a willingness to accept each other's cultural differences in a nonjudgmental or non self righteous way?

This is just off the top of my head and not at all definitive. I would be open to an expansion or even correction of any of these points as well as the list being lengthened.
This is great list. Unfortunately, all that it takes is a twisting or skewed perception of what non-resistance is and no body will stand up when these things are going on. Where are the faithful men that will? - as you mention they are called individualistic...! :roll:
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temporal1
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by temporal1 »

Online Etymology Dictionary
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cult
cult (n.) Look up cult at Dictionary.com
1610s, "worship," also "a particular form of worship,"
from French culte (17c.),
from Latin cultus "care, labor;
cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," past participle of colere "to till" (see colony).

Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals.
Meaning "a devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.

:arrow: Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree. [Rawson]
cult
kəlt/
noun
noun: cult; plural noun: cults
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms: sect, denomination, group, movement, church, persuasion, body, faction
"a religious cult"
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of, veneration of
"the cult of eternal youth in Hollywood"
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable, especially among a particular section of society.
"a cult film"

Origin
early 17th century (originally denoting homage paid to a divinity): from French culte or Latin cultus ‘worship,’ from cult- ‘inhabited, cultivated, worshiped,’ from the verb colere.
Cult is an interesting word. There doesn't seem to be a way to make it anything but a (negative) subjective word. So much so, this thread's subject line words, "Disordered Cults," are likely redundant. :-|

It is not used in scriptures (that i've found;) it came from Latin, but not until the 1600's, it hasn't been used a lot (a good thing, considering its etymology) ..

:arrow: "Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree." [Rawson]

Coincidentally, about the time this thread began, i was/have been viewing an episode of
Ancient Roads: Pagans and the Cult of Martyrs
http://www.christtoconstantine.com/
but, the word, "cult," would not have been used in the episode's time period, 3rd Century Rome (??)

but!? -
how does this fit with how it's recorded that early Christians were thought to be a cult? and, dealt with harshly? .. (not always, but, memorably.) it must be that the word was not coined as we think of it, but, other words were used (??) there is no shortage of negative words, thoughts, actions.
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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

That's why I added the qualifier "Disordered" to the topic of this thread. It focuses on the definition that describes unhealthy groups and situations, thus hoping to avoid the distraction of the other definitions. ;)
temporal1 wrote:
Online Etymology Dictionary
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cult
cult (n.) Look up cult at Dictionary.com
1610s, "worship," also "a particular form of worship,"
from French culte (17c.),
from Latin cultus "care, labor;
cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," past participle of colere "to till" (see colony).

Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals.
Meaning "a devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.

:arrow: Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree. [Rawson]
cult
kəlt/
noun
noun: cult; plural noun: cults
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms: sect, denomination, group, movement, church, persuasion, body, faction
"a religious cult"
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of, veneration of
"the cult of eternal youth in Hollywood"
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable, especially among a particular section of society.
"a cult film"

Origin
early 17th century (originally denoting homage paid to a divinity): from French culte or Latin cultus ‘worship,’ from cult- ‘inhabited, cultivated, worshiped,’ from the verb colere.
Cult is an interesting word. There doesn't seem to be a way to make it anything but a (negative) subjective word. So much so, this thread's subject line words, "Disordered Cults," are likely redundant. :-|

It is not used in scriptures (that i've found;) it came from Latin, but not until the 1600's, it hasn't been used a lot (a good thing, considering its etymology) ..

:arrow: "Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree." [Rawson]

Coincidentally, about the time this thread began, i was/have been viewing an episode of
Ancient Roads: Pagans and the Cult of Martyrs
http://www.christtoconstantine.com/
but, the word, "cult," would not have been used in the episode's time period, 3rd Century Rome (??)

but!? -
how does this fit with how it's recorded that early Christians were thought to be a cult? and, dealt with harshly? .. (not always, but, memorably.) it must be that the word was not coined as we think of it, but, other words were used (??) there is no shortage of negative words, thoughts, actions.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Bootstrap
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:That's why I added the qualifier "Disordered" to the topic of this thread. It focuses on the definition that describes unhealthy groups and situations, thus hoping to avoid the distraction of the other definitions. ;)
Were you thinking primarily in terms of unhealthy authority, badly wrong doctrine, or both?
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