Disordered Cults

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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:This is a good overview.
Personality characteristics of a cult leader.
This is written by Sam Vaknin, whose Ph.D. is in physics, and writes from his own experiences as someone with narcissistic disorder. He says that most academics in the field do not accept many of his views, but his model is interesting. Here is the summary from Wikipedia:
Views on narcissism

In his view, narcissists have lost their "true self", the core of their personality, which has been replaced by delusions of grandeur, a "false self". Therefore, he believes, they cannot be healed, because they do not exist as real persons, only as reflections: "The False Self replaces the narcissist's True Self and is intended to shield him from hurt and narcissistic injury by self-imputing omnipotence ... The narcissist pretends that his False Self is real and demands that others affirm this confabulation," meanwhile keeping his real-life imperfect true self under wraps.
I don't know much about narcissism, but I do think that online forums are an ideal place for people to create an "Internet self", which may not match real life. If people claim credentials, or claim to live a particular way, or tell us about their communities, we should get some details on their credentials, the way they actually live. Surely someone knows someone who knows someone who can tell us more. Surely there are real places with real addresses that can be identified. If there are websites, surely we can examine the pictures and see if they are what they claim to be. If we are given some history, surely we can examine it to see if the history checks out. If someone makes claims about what a church teaches, surely we can look at their official church teaching to see if these claims are true. Vaknin says that a narcissist will lash out against anyone who threatens this false self, and goes into some detail about how a narcissist is likely to do so. I am not sure if this is the same thing as the DSM describes as narcissism, I suspect it does overlap with what some cult leaders do, but it's not just cult leaders.

If we want to protect ourselves against this kind of thing, we need to welcome requests to help us know what is true, and let the discerning community examine things together.
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MaxPC
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Re: Disordered Cults

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The Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD, 301.81) has been recognized as a separate mental health disorder since the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual (DSM), 1980.

It is described as an all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy. It usually begins by early adulthood and is present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met (all quotes are from Dr. Sam Vaknin’s Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited):

1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);

“The narcissist is prone to magical thinking. He thinks about himself in terms of ‘being chosen’ or of ‘having a destiny’. …He believes that his life is of such momentous importance, that it is micro-managed by God. …In short, narcissism and religion go well together, because religion allows the narcissist to feel unique.”

“God is everything the narcissist ever wants to be: omniscient, omnipresent, admired, much discussed, and awe inspiring. God is the narcissist’s wet dream, his ultimate grandiose fantasy.”

2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;

“The narcissist is haunted by the feeling that he is possessed of a mission, of a destiny, that he is a part of fate, of history. He is convinced that his uniqueness is purposeful, that he is meant to lead, chart new ways, to innovate to modernize, to reform, to set precedents, to create. Every act is significant, every writing of momentous consequences, every thought of revolutionary calibre. He feels part of a grand design, a world plan and the frame of affiliation, the group, of which he is a member, must be commensurately grand.”

3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);

“The narcissist despises the very people who sustain his Ego boundaries and functions. He cannot respect people so expressly and clearly inferior to him, yet he can never associate with evidently on his level or superior to him, the risk of narcissistic injury in such associations being too great.”

4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);

“A common error is to think that ‘narcissistic supply’ consists only of admiration, adulation and positive feedback. Actually, being feared, or derided is also supply. The main element is ATTENTION.”

“He feeds of other people, who hurl back at him an image that he projects to them. This is their sole function in his world: to reflect, to admire, to admire, to applaud, to detest – in a word, to assure him that he exists.”

“In short: the group must magnify the narcissist, echo and amplify his life, his views, his knowledge, his history…”

5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations;

“He considers his very existence as sufficiently nourishing and sustaining (of others). He feels entitled to the best others can offer without investing in maintaining relationships or in catering to the well-being of his ‘suppliers’.”

6. Is “interpersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;

“He will not hesitate to put people’s lives or fortunes at risk. He will preserve his sense of infallibility in the face of his mistakes and misjudgments by distorting the facts, by evoking mitigating or attenuating circumstances, by repressing the memories, or simply lying.”

7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others;

“But the narcissist does not care. Unable to empathize, he does not fully experience the outcomes of his deeds and decision. For him, humans are dispensable, rechargeable, reusable. They are there to fulfill a function: to supply him with Narcissistic Supply (adoration, admiration, approval, affirmation, etc.). They do not have an existence apart from the carrying out of their duty.”

8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her;

“First there is pathological envy. The narcissist is constantly envious of other people: their successes, their property, their character, their education, their children, their ideas, the fact that they can feel, their good mood, their past, their present, their spouses, their mistresses or lovers, their location.”

9. Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

“That which has cosmic implications calls for cosmic reactions. A person with an inflated sense of self-import, reacts in an exaggerated manner to threats, greatly inflated by his imagination and by the application of his personal myth.”

“Narcissists live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. They firmly believe that everyone is like them. As a result, they are paranoid, suspicious, scared and erratic.”

Conclusion:

“NPD is a pernicious, vile and tortuous disease, which affects not only the narcissist. It affects and forever changes people who are in daily contact with the narcissist.”

“Sooner, or later, everyone around the narcissist is bound to become his victim. People are sucked, voluntarily or involuntarily, into the turbulence that constitutes his life, into the black hole that is his personality, into the whirlwind which makes up his interpersonal relationships. Different people are hurt by different aspects of the narcissist’s life and psychological make-up. Some trust him and rely on him, only to be bitterly disappointed. Others love him and discover that he cannot reciprocate. Yet others are forced to live vicariously, through him.”
http://neirr.org/psychissues/Personality_Disorders.htm
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
So we should ask for evidence of those achievements, make sure that vivid claims are true, etc. A narcissist should be held accountable to normal standards of truth.
MaxPC wrote:Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;
So we should be aware that some things we are being told are merely fantasies, stories that the narcissist likes to project himself into.
MaxPC wrote:3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
So we should avoid creating special rules to protect that person from normal interactions with others who may threaten his fantasy world.
MaxPC wrote:4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);
OK, maybe just ignoring that person a lot more would be helpful.
MaxPC wrote:He feeds of other people, who hurl back at him an image that he projects to them. This is their sole function in his world: to reflect, to admire, to admire, to applaud, to detest – in a word, to assure him that he exists.
OK, how do we avoid doing that?
MaxPC wrote:5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations;
So immediately complying with those demands is really a negative thing, isn't it? It just feeds this behavior.
MaxPC wrote:He considers his very existence as sufficiently nourishing and sustaining (of others). He feels entitled to the best others can offer without investing in maintaining relationships or in catering to the well-being of his ‘suppliers’.
So we should ask this person to participate in the work of relationships.
MaxPC wrote:6. Is “interpersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;
Obviously, we need to resist that.

I won't go through the whole list. But I do think that internet forums can sometimes foster these kinds of behaviors, and we should be thoughtful about how we respond to this kind of thing.
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

I want to be clear about one thing: I am not mental health professional, and I do not mean to be diagnosing anyone. But I do think that the kinds of basic accountability that most people suggest when dealing with narcissism or cult leaders are also appropriate on Internet forums. Nobody is above the truth. Nobody needs special rules to shield them from questions. We should be aware that some people project fantasy lives in Internet forums.

If we don't hold them to the truth, they tend to take over.
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Re: Disordered Cults

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9. Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

“That which has cosmic implications calls for cosmic reactions. A person with an inflated sense of self-import, reacts in an exaggerated manner to threats, greatly inflated by his imagination and by the application of his personal myth.”

“Narcissists live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. They firmly believe that everyone is like them. As a result, they are paranoid, suspicious, scared and erratic.”
This characteristic is striking (no pun intended) because there seems to be a greater number of people exhibiting these symptoms in the past year. It makes me wonder how much of a role it plays in the behaviors of Internet stalkers, political tantrums, and increased numbers of murders?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:
9. Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

“That which has cosmic implications calls for cosmic reactions. A person with an inflated sense of self-import, reacts in an exaggerated manner to threats, greatly inflated by his imagination and by the application of his personal myth.”

“Narcissists live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. They firmly believe that everyone is like them. As a result, they are paranoid, suspicious, scared and erratic.”
This characteristic is striking (no pun intended) because there seems to be a greater number of people exhibiting these symptoms in the past year. It makes me wonder how much of a role it plays in the behaviors of Internet stalkers, political tantrums, and increased numbers of murders?
So you would expect someone like this to think other people live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. You would expect someone like this to be live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. None of us is a great judge of ourselves, but the people around me certainly would not describe me that way. Do you read my posts that way?

You would not expect someone like this to give a simple direct response when something they say is questioned. You would expect them to campaign against other people instead.

So I don't think you are every going to directly answer questions about the fake pictures on your website, pictures clearly identified on the Internet by the places they came from, but presented as something else. I don't think we will ever find out the details of the communities or history you describe in ways that would allow us to evaluate them. I don't think we will ever know the actual credentials you claim to have in any verifiable way.

And I think you will continue to act out against people who ask these questions. People should realize that's what is going on. I don't think we should enable that. The sources you point to in this thread explain quite clearly why we shouldn't.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Wayne in Maine »

MaxPC wrote:This is a good overview.
Personality characteristics of a cult leader.
I found this quite fascinating, as it describes (from my own and from other ex-members observations) the characteristics of the former elder of the Bruderhof Communities. In a real sense it gives me some hope for reform of the organization if the cult-like characteristics were a result of the leader's personality disorder. Though I have long observed of the Bruderhof a "group neurosis" that reflects the neurosis of the top leader. It is as if the personality of the leader becomes the personality of the organization, making me wonder if the Bruderhof is incurably corrupted.
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote:This is a good overview.
Personality characteristics of a cult leader.
I found this quite fascinating, as it describes (from my own and from other ex-members observations) the characteristics of the former elder of the Bruderhof Communities. In a real sense it gives me some hope for reform of the organization if the cult-like characteristics were a result of the leader's personality disorder. Though I have long observed of the Bruderhof a "group neurosis" that reflects the neurosis of the top leader. It is as if the personality of the leader becomes the personality of the organization, making me wonder if the Bruderhof is incurably corrupted.
Which characteristics did you see in them? How did that play out?
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Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote:This is a good overview.
Personality characteristics of a cult leader.
I found this quite fascinating, as it describes (from my own and from other ex-members observations) the characteristics of the former elder of the Bruderhof Communities. In a real sense it gives me some hope for reform of the organization if the cult-like characteristics were a result of the leader's personality disorder. Though I have long observed of the Bruderhof a "group neurosis" that reflects the neurosis of the top leader. It is as if the personality of the leader becomes the personality of the organization, making me wonder if the Bruderhof is incurably corrupted.
Everyone wondered the same thing about a CC religious order in recent years. Fortunately the Magisterium sent in an Apostolic Administrator who cleared out the support structure for the dysfunctional leader and put new leadership in place through a fair election. A lot of prayer and hope out there that this can and will be saved as there were some very good priests in that order. Some left and became incardinated in (assigned to) a diocese. There was a grace that came from that situation: awareness of cult personalities and the warning signs of a cult were placed front and center within Catholic conversations.

We'll pray for the Bruderhof to have a similar reorganization and a proper revival of authentic discipleship to Jesus. ;) Hopefully the conversation about cult personalities and cult warning signs will continue as this can happen in any fellowship/denomination.

If I'm not mistaken, the Apostle Paul touched on cults in his epistles. I haven't the time to doing a search for the next week or two but perhaps this thread can continue with citations from Paul's writings on the topic?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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