Disordered Cults

General Christian Theology
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Josh »

Joy wrote:Within the setting of Christendom, the actual doctrines that are usually attacked by a cult are the authority of Scripture, and who Jesus is--His deity and His humanity.
My experience with cults that I've been around are that they don't actually do that - they just keep plodding away with orthodox Christian theology, and they then actually use that to manipulate people and put them into a state of fear.

The cult I mentioned earlier sticks to 100% orthodox Trinitarianism and Christology. That doesn't do anything to change the absolute fear they put people under, or how they control their lives, and force them cut off contact with their family.
0 x
silentreader
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:41 pm
Affiliation: MidWest Fellowship

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by silentreader »

Hats Off wrote:Google "Enos Bauman" or "Gladstone Mennonites" for an example. I have not had direct contact but know some of the families.
And the 'roots' of that particular episode go back 40-50 years.
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

Joy wrote:Within the setting of Christendom, the actual doctrines that are usually attacked by a cult are the authority of Scripture, and who Jesus is--His deity and His humanity.
Josh wrote:My experience with cults that I've been around are that they don't actually do that - they just keep plodding away with orthodox Christian theology, and they then actually use that to manipulate people and put them into a state of fear.
The word "cult" has several distinct meanings. One meaning of the word is a group that teaches badly wrong doctrine. Another meaning of the word is a group that under abusive authority. Some cults have the first problem, some cults have the second problem, some have both problems. But these two definitions mean very different things, it would be convenient if we had distinct words for the two distinct concepts.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Had a conversation about this with someone today who labeled Unitarian Universalism as a cult. I said I'd consider it the farthest possible thing from a cult :-|
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23826
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Josh »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Had a conversation about this with someone today who labeled Unitarian Universalism as a cult. I said I'd consider it the farthest possible thing from a cult :-|
No kidding. Confusing "cult" with "not evangelical orthodoxy" seems to be particularly common in fundamentalist Baptist circles.
0 x
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by MaxPC »

silentreader wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Google "Enos Bauman" or "Gladstone Mennonites" for an example. I have not had direct contact but know some of the families.
And the 'roots' of that particular episode go back 40-50 years.
With each disordered cult threatening Christianity's standing, the following quote gives me hope:
“Christianity has died many times and risen again; for it had a God who knew the way out of the grave.” —G.K.Chesterton, The Everlasting Man
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Had a conversation about this with someone today who labeled Unitarian Universalism as a cult. I said I'd consider it the farthest possible thing from a cult :-|
Let's distinguish the two meanings of cult. I would call the Unitarian Universalists a cult(heretical), but not a cult(abusive). The word cult is used with both meanings, confusing people who assume they are talking about the same thing.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Wayne in Maine
Posts: 1195
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:52 am
Location: Slightly above sea level, in the dear old State of Maine
Affiliation: Yielded

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Bootstrap wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
MaxPC wrote:This is a good overview.
Personality characteristics of a cult leader.
I found this quite fascinating, as it describes (from my own and from other ex-members observations) the characteristics of the former elder of the Bruderhof Communities. In a real sense it gives me some hope for reform of the organization if the cult-like characteristics were a result of the leader's personality disorder. Though I have long observed of the Bruderhof a "group neurosis" that reflects the neurosis of the top leader. It is as if the personality of the leader becomes the personality of the organization, making me wonder if the Bruderhof is incurably corrupted.
Which characteristics did you see in them? How did that play out?
I do believe all the traits listed are descriptive of their former elder, I am amazed to see how well this fit him. The particular traits that have rubbed off on the communities are their sense of importance (or at least the importance of their publications, events, activities an their leaders) in the world, their sense of entitlement – of being above the law even, their finely honed and even brutal lack of empathy (not only toward outsiders, but toward fellow members), and the use of others to achieve their ends.

It might actually come down to something entirely different, that is, the characteristics of the organization lead by a Narcissistic personality may not be Narcissistic, but bolster the leader inside the organization and to the world at large. Christoph Arnold wrote none of the books attributed to him (I know exactly who some of his ghost writers are) but the Bruderhof still lifts him up as a great author whose books won awards and were read in 20 languages by millions of people. He was not a great counselor, but an abusive bully in the way he handled those in his pastoral care. He destroyed many families and saved few.

With his recent death, many hurt people (expressed in private forums) are struggling with the reality they experienced that contrasts so sharply with how the Bruderhof and its admirers represent him.
0 x
Peregrino
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:16 pm
Affiliation:

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Peregrino »

quietpilgrim wrote:Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform, often used by sociologists in indentifying cultic group behavior:

1. Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

2. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.

3. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

4. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

5. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

6. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clich�s, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

7. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

8. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
This list makes me scratch my head a little. I grew up Conservative Mennonite and this description fits what I grew up with like a glove. But I've never really considered them a cult. So, are they a cult? And if not, what about them makes them different from this definition? Or am I missing something here?
0 x
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: Disordered Cults

Post by Hats Off »

I see some similarities to our situation but in some areas it is a matter of degree. Several areas I would say don't apply at all. I would hope if it fits like a glove, it is a fairly loose glove. Most times our particular experiences colour our perceptions of the facts.
0 x
Post Reply