The difference between then and now

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Bootstrap
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The difference between then and now

Post by Bootstrap »

From another thread:
Valerie wrote:The difference between then and now- All the Churches at that time, were started by the Apostles- they were all on the same page with doctrine and interpretations. When heresies would arise or heretical groups were started, they were not considered to be part of the Church- and they were churches named by their 'location' not beliefs/ordinances.
I disagree. I think there was significantly more variety in doctrine and ordinances in the early church than some people would like to think, even among orthodox Christians. The differences between Jews and Greeks are one important example, and at times they would not even eat together, but there were many others. Constantine insisted on a level of agreed doctrine that had not existed earlier, which is one of the reasons for the creeds. Any careful reading of the earliest writings shows a much wider variety of doctrine.

And the letters of Paul testify that there were heresies within the church from the earliest days, heresies that needed to be fought.

Paul's approach to this was to constantly remind us who we are in Christ, what is at the heart of the Gospel, and to emphasize holiness and love. I think we need to keep doing the same. I don't expect the denominations to come together any time soon - we aren't even at the point that we all accept other Christians at the communion table. But if the Body of Christ is divided, at least we can agree that we will not be the ones who are dividing it.

Can you imagine an Acts 15 council today, where we could look at other Christians who are quite different from us and say this?
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
So often, we create our own rituals and observances and theologies and practices and insist that they are what it takes to be a true Christian. But when it comes down to it, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as other true Christians will.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I disagree. I think there was significantly more variety in doctrine and ordinances in the early church than some people would like to think, even among orthodox Christians
Agreed. The idea that the church is in some sort of ever-worsening, divisive cycle seems weak. Our culture is one that idealizes the past ("Make America Great Again" being a timely example...) while suggesting we, currently, are constantly decaying.

There's nothing new under the sun... error takes many forms at different times. I don't jump to the conclusion that what we see/ experience now is any worse or better than the past.
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Valerie
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Valerie »

Well we will have to agree to disagree. I really don't think this oneness that you see is the same type of Oneness that Christ prayed for.
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Bootstrap
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:Well we will have to agree to disagree. I really don't think this oneness that you see is the same type of Oneness that Christ prayed for.
I don't think the Oneness that Christ prayed for is that everyone should go and join my church because my church is the right one. I think it is this:
Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
That's not necessarily all belonging to the same institutional church and having all the same theological beliefs. We can choose to be one in Christ even if there are barriers to joining the same church.

There are some things in both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church that I do not see as biblical, and they would prevent me from joining either church. But I do see them as brethren in Christ. Our unity is not found in our denominations, but in Christ.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Heirbyadoption »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
I disagree. I think there was significantly more variety in doctrine and ordinances in the early church than some people would like to think, even among orthodox Christians
Agreed. The idea that the church is in some sort of ever-worsening, divisive cycle seems weak. Our culture is one that idealizes the past ("Make America Great Again" being a timely example...) while suggesting we, currently, are constantly decaying.

There's nothing new under the sun... error takes many forms at different times. I don't jump to the conclusion that what we see/ experience now is any worse or better than the past.
KB ~ I might disagree with you to a point, if I may. Was America ever a "Christian nation?" The evidence says no. But there was a smaller percentage of populace, a higher percentage of Christians and moralists within that populace. And truly there is nothing new under the sun, but it seems fair to say that the national morality of the United States, especially in that which is allowed legislatively, is significantly more decayed than 300 years ago. In the grand scheme (look back at Rome, for example), certainly it's a fallen world just the same, though. From what I can see, and just musing aloud here, this "recent" national decay has had a distinct effect on the American church, imho, with many succumbing/compromising to various immoral aspects, even though others have stepped back and refused such compromise. Just something to chew on...
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Josh
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Josh »

More decayed than 300 years ago?

Is slavery a sign of less decay?
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Heirbyadoption »

No. But there are more visible evils tolerated or promoted in society and even governmentally.
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Josh
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote:No. But there are more visible evils tolerated or promoted in society and even governmentally.
Isn't slavery a visible evil?
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by ken_sylvania »

Heirbyadoption wrote:No. But there are more visible evils tolerated or promoted in society and even governmentally.
I would suggest that the particular evils being tolerated and promoted are certainly different, but to some extent I'm not sure how much worse they are.

However, we are told that evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. Because of this I don't argue with anyone who says the world is getting worse.
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Re: The difference between then and now

Post by Josh »

Nero, feeding Christians to lions, completely open sexual immorality, etc. like in Bible times seems pretty bad.

Likewise a church tolerating someone like they did in 1 Co. 5.
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