What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"?

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Bootstrap
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Re: What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"?

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:Some good arguments here for that possibility. Questions relating to it being his eyes -
I think the same arguments apply to all of the possibilities. Let's look at the text in context:
So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me.…
No matter what the thorn was, we know that (1) it was given to Paul to keep him from being conceited, (2) he calls it "a messenger of Satan, to torment me, (3) he pleaded three times that it be removed from him, and (4) God taught him that his grace is sufficient for him, and Paul learned to glory in his weakness.

Think about the stories of blind men in the Bible. They were often beggars. There was little they could do to support themselves. If Paul could write with large letters, it would not have been total blindness, just significant problems seeing, but it would still make it hard to go on journeys, and make him dependent on others all the time.

No matter what the thorn in the flesh was, it is a stark contrast to the power Paul exercised in other situations. He could cast out demons in others, for instance (e.g. in Acts 16) and he could heal others. He asked that it be removed three times, and probably expected that it would be. I think this tells us something about how to pray when we face our own thorns - start by praying, asking, seeking, knocking, expecting God to step in. But sometimes God teaches us that his grace is sufficient for us instead. It's really up to God. And I think that's my answer to each of your questions.

That said, the eyes hypothesis is just a hypothesis. What matters to me is what I said in the previous paragraph. In my own life, I apply it to some physical issues that I have to deal with in everyday life.

It's also worth noting that Paul refers to another trial in a similar way here:
17 Brothers, although we were torn away from you for a short time (in person, not in heart), our desire to see you face to face was even more intense. 18 For we wanted to come to you — indeed I, Paul, tried again and again — but Satan obstructed us. 19 After all, who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?…
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Bootstrap
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Re: What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"?

Post by Bootstrap »

KingdomBuilder wrote:If his thorn was merely a sight problem, why would he be so, seemingly, evasive in talking about it?

I mean, why would he not just say "A messenger of Satan delivered me a sight problem"? Surely something so physical wouldn't be offensive or contrary to his mission so as to avoid writing it.

This is why I tend to think his thorn was something more internal... something that would warrant not explicitly saying it.
Am I making sense?
Yes, and my hypothesis could easily be wrong. Regardless, I think we have to assume we do not know for sure what this was.

But I think it may be a mismatch between what we expect and the way Paul regarded this. So far, the eyes hypothesis is the one I find most convincing.
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Sudsy
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Re: What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"?

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Bootstrap wrote:I think this tells us something about how to pray when we face our own thorns - start by praying, asking, seeking, knocking, expecting God to step in. But sometimes God teaches us that his grace is sufficient for us instead. It's really up to God. And I think that's my answer to each of your questions.
Agree and it also says to me to keep asking in faith to expect an answer as indicated also in the persistent widow parable -

"One day Jesus told his disciples a story to show that they should always pray and never give up. “There was a judge in a certain city,” he said, “who neither feared God nor cared about people. A widow of that city came to him repeatedly, saying, ‘Give me justice in this dispute with my enemy.’ The judge ignored her for a while, but finally he said to himself, ‘I don’t fear God or care about people, but this woman is driving me crazy. I’m going to see that she gets justice, because she is wearing me out with her constant requests!’”

Then the Lord said, “Learn a lesson from this unjust judge. Even he rendered a just decision in the end. So don’t you think God will surely give justice to his chosen people who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?” (highlighting mine)

A side issue here is do we know when God is answering rather than our own thinking coming up with an answer. Paul definitely knew the voice of God and could put it into words as if spoken audibly. Our pastor this morning spoke of God speaking to him at various times with clear directions that made no sense to him. If one does not know this voice from all other voices in one's head, to act on 'a voice' could be quite disastrous. And we don't read where Paul consulted other believers about what this voice said. Another interesting topic.
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Re: What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"?

Post by Valerie »

I've heard the possibility of it being a physical infirmity and the consideration of his eyesight. Personally I didn't feel this was it- like someone else pointed out, I think he would have stated that to be the case.
It seems when considering it was a messenger from (s)atan and he asked that it 'depart' from him, AND that it was allowed to keep him humble, it seems (by considering many Scriptures) that it would have been either a particular temptation that was very strong or 'the accuser of the brethren' which may have kept reminding him of the fact that Christians had died because of him when he was persecuting the early church. Apostle Paul admitted he did that in ignorance, however, my experience with the attacks of the enemy that he uses your past against you, even when you know you have been forgiven- and it is very humbling- the demonic realm loves to throw up your past- killing Christians would be a tough one to forget.

When Jesus said to Him "My grace is sufficient, my strength is made perfect in weakness" whether by the fight of temptation, or the battle against the accuser of the brethren- Apostle Paul had to rest in this grace- and as Boot said, we can draw a lot from that-

One reason it 'could' be a physical infirmity- the Apostles were able to heal so many but if he was not able to be 'healed' that could have been the messenger of satan to buffet him lest he become prideful regarding how much revelation he was given, and his spiritual gifts.

Just my thoughts about this as I've considered it-
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