Easter ham or Passover lamb?

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Sudsy
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by Sudsy »

JohnHurt wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Are you challenging the inspiration/Inerrency/authority of the Pauline epistles here?

J.M.
Only where Paul contradicts the teachings of Christ.

If you want a list of where Paul and Christ disagree, I will open up a thread for you.
John, I would be interested in a thread like this if you still care to make one up. I don't believe they do contradict each other and would offer some explanations why I think they don't. You had referred to a couple of these somewhere already that I think had explanations to consider.
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JohnHurt
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by JohnHurt »

Sudsy wrote:
John, a few questions as I'm curious as to your view of believers who do not practise as you do in this area -

1) Do you agree that despite other believer's opinion on feast days, that God has accepted them into His family ?
2) If yes, do they not have the Holy Spirit in them to lead them in how to follow Christ ?
3) Are you suggesting that believers that treat one day the same as another in how they worship God, worship in vain ?
4) Are those who worship God at Christmas and Easter worshipping God in vain ?
5) Are these traditions doctrines being taught as commandments that must be observed ?
6) What do you believe will be the consequences of not following feast days or some man formed celebration days ?
Sudsy, thank you for your questions, here are my answers:

1. Judge not, that ye be not judged. I am not in a position to state God's acceptance of someone, only to point out what He has said.

2. Not everyone has the Holy Spirit, some have the spirit of the antiChrist - that is, something in place of Christ, something more dear to them than the truth.

3. Following the commandments of men as a replacement for what God has commanded would violate Christ's statement in Matthew 15:9. He also said a few verses later that we should leave these people alone, I suppose I should try to understand that better. (Matthew 15:14)

4. You will have to determine how Christmas and Easter originated. Did these days come from God, or from man?

5. With some, their traditions as doctrines actually carry more weight that what is written in the Bible. Infant baptism comes to mind, along with certain days, like December 25th, or Easter Ham.

6. Matthew 7:21-23 is the passage that always frightened me. I studied it, and found that the word "iniquity" is really "breaking God's Law." I have been trying to stay on the "safe side" ever since.

And Sudsy, if I am wrong in what I understand, then I have only lost my participation in a few events, like Easter egg hunts and the like. But if I am correct in what I understand, and I go back to following what is popular, then I have the problem of Luke 12:47.

I think our God is merciful, and long suffering with us, and may only give us as much truth as we can accept at one time. This has been quite a journey.

Blessings to you in your studies.
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Josh
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

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On this day when we remember Jesus Christ dying at the hands of sinners who "knew not what they do", I can only think of how our Passover Lamb is a worthy sacrifice for all the mistakes, sins, and bad theology we have made.

"God be merciful to me a sinner!" is my cry.
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

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Josh wrote:One struggle with following the law is a passage like this:
In six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on it will be put to death. You must not kindle a fire in any of your homes on the Sabbath day.
I think Jesus' words are very important, and I don't think I can follow Jesus whilst putting someone to death for working at 4:58 PM on a Friday.
And would we really close the hospitals every Friday evening, send the Police home, and shut down the power companies one day a week? For a doctor has to work on Sabbath to heal the sick, just as Christ did on the Sabbath.

Your quote from Exodus 35:2-3 is followed by a description of the Tabernacle in that same chapter. This earthly tabernacle is no longer here, but was a principle of the true tabernacle (Hebrews 9:11), just as the penalty for breaking the Sabbath was a principle that shows us the importance of the Sabbath in Exodus 35:2-3.

You are looking for an single exception to extinguish the general principle. If you had lived at the time that Moses instituted this penalty for not keeping the sabbath, it may have made perfect sense to you. But whether you understand it or not, it is still there.

The 7th Day Sabbath was first instituted by God in Genesis 2:2. We next see the Sabbath in Exodus 16:23, which is prior to the Covenant made on Mt. Sinai. So the Sabbath predates the Old Covenant, and is incorporated in the Sinai covenant as the 4th of the 10 Commandments. (Exodus 20:8-11)

Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and performed His greatest miracles on the Sabbath day, which is why it is called "the Lord's Day". (Revelation 1:10).

After the death of Christ, which established the New Covenant, Christ's followers continued to keep the Sabbath day, (Luke 23:56), for Christ had predicted that the Sabbath would be in effect long after His death, even after the destruction of Jerusalem. (Matthew 24:20). For God's Law has been established as the primary institution of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10). Therefore, the Sabbath Day is still valid, as it has always been central to God's Law.

Here is my question for you:

Our Lord had compassion on widows (Luke 7:13), as God's Law said that they should be treated with kindness (Ex 22:22, Deut 14:29, 16:11, 24:17, 26:12, 26:19. There is no indication that we should ask about their age, or circumstances, just that we should take care of them. This was a function of the early church, no questions asked (Acts 6:1).

Does this sound reasonable to you?

Or do you agree with Paul, that we should not help widows that are less than 60 years old, or if they were married more than once, or if she does not have children, or if she does not believe in foot-washing, and many other conditions that Paul said would reject a widow from being helped by the church? (1 Timothy 5:9-10)

Also, do you think that younger widow, like less than 60 years old, say someone in their late fifties, with no home, no income, absolutely nothing, that we should refuse to help her? The reason being, "for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry. Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith". (1 Timothy 5:11-12)

Now that is something I really struggle with.

I think James, the brother of our Lord, condemned Paul's doctrines about widows when he wrote:

James 1:(27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction.

I would side with James against Paul, because James actually knew Christ, and so followed God's Law, which is what Christ taught.

And James taught that all of the 10 Commandments are still valid today. (James 2:8-12), just as James taught against Paul's doctrine of Salvation by faith. (James 2:14-26)

But what are your thoughts? Do you think we should follow Paul's instructions - to the letter - to not support a widow that is under 60 years old?

For if you break the commandments of Paul in this instance, then the other commandments Paul made could be broken as well.
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by JohnHurt »

Sudsy wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Are you challenging the inspiration/Inerrency/authority of the Pauline epistles here?

J.M.
Only where Paul contradicts the teachings of Christ.

If you want a list of where Paul and Christ disagree, I will open up a thread for you.
John, I would be interested in a thread like this if you still care to make one up. I don't believe they do contradict each other and would offer some explanations why I think they don't. You had referred to a couple of these somewhere already that I think had explanations to consider.
Dear Sudsy,

Yes, let me work on this. Probably just one thread for each topic where there is a contradiction. There are several.

And I want to do it in a way that is not offensive to others, just that "iron will sharpen iron" and we can all learn together.

Because I could be wrong. I appreciate your posts.

Blessings,

John
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by Josh »

To be frank, John, I believe in the whole Bible.

If I wanted to follow just the "red letters" and avoid Paul, I would have stayed in the Mennonite Church USA. My life would be a lot more convenient now if I l'd done that. Many of them do not affirm Paul or Peter but only the "red letters" of Jesus' words.

If I wanted to keep the whole law and the Old Testament, I would be a convert to Judaism, which would have immense personal and professional advantages for me.

None of this is to condemn liberal Mennonites or to condemn those who follow Orthodox Judaism.
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Sudsy
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by Sudsy »

JohnHurt wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:
Only where Paul contradicts the teachings of Christ.

If you want a list of where Paul and Christ disagree, I will open up a thread for you.
John, I would be interested in a thread like this if you still care to make one up. I don't believe they do contradict each other and would offer some explanations why I think they don't. You had referred to a couple of these somewhere already that I think had explanations to consider.
Dear Sudsy,

Yes, let me work on this. Probably just one thread for each topic where there is a contradiction. There are several.

And I want to do it in a way that is not offensive to others, just that "iron will sharpen iron" and we can all learn together.

Because I could be wrong. I appreciate your posts.

Blessings,

John
Thanks John. It is always a good opportunity to check how we operate in the 1 Cor 13 kind of love when others don't see eye to eye with us. I agree that we can all learn together and for sure, my beliefs are not what they once were and not what they may be in the future in some areas. I enjoy exploring the scriptures and how to apply them.
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by ohio jones »

JohnHurt wrote:Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and performed His greatest miracles on the Sabbath day, which is why it is called "the Lord's Day". (Revelation 1:10).
With the exception of the greatest miracle of His earthly ministry, which most of us commemorate today and weekly.

Paul said, and I do not think he contradicts Jesus in this: If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Today I was invited to dinner, although it was a believer who invited me. I ate what was set before me without asking what it was (which was not immediately obvious because of the sauce), and it turned out to be neither ham nor lamb.

Not everything is as binary as we often try to make it appear.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

JohnHurt wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:
Only where Paul contradicts the teachings of Christ.

If you want a list of where Paul and Christ disagree, I will open up a thread for you.
No need, call me back when you can say:

I have a kitchen with two ovens, sinks, dishwashers and cooktops

My wife will not even touch me incidentally for about half of the month, she will not even serve me food or hand something to me.

I own four sets of dishes.

I have unscrewed the bulb from the interior light in my refrigerator beginning friday night.

Because:

Galatians 5:2+3 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

J.M.
And Paul contradicts Galatians 5:2-3 in Romans 2:25-27.

Do you hold this statement by Christ to be superior to Paul?

Matthew 5:
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Or is Paul in Galatians superior to Christ in Matthew?
I would say, they are both equally inspired, and there is ultimately there is no final conflict between the two.

Acts 15:27-29 herefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

What you suggest seems to go far beyond "these things."

J.M.
Last edited by Judas Maccabeus on Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Easter ham or Passover lamb?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

ohio jones wrote:
JohnHurt wrote:Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and performed His greatest miracles on the Sabbath day, which is why it is called "the Lord's Day". (Revelation 1:10).
With the exception of the greatest miracle of His earthly ministry, which most of us commemorate today and weekly.

Paul said, and I do not think he contradicts Jesus in this: If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Today I was invited to dinner, although it was a believer who invited me. I ate what was set before me without asking what it was (which was not immediately obvious because of the sauce), and it turned out to be neither ham nor lamb.

Not everything is as binary as we often try to make it appear.
1 Cor 10:25 "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,"

I hope you enjoyed your meal. First rule we were taught as missionaries DON'T ASK

J.M.
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