Poll: Loving Putin

[temporal1]

The only reason the US hasn’t attacked Russia, though, is because of the Nuclear deterrent. Unfortunately America is a bellicose, belligerent nation.

Much like the Soviet Union was.

i’m afraid this is the case, esp obvious (to me, anyway) following obama’s prideful foreign policy objectives. i don’t believe many recognize that “America” is now a hijacked euphemism for all manner carnal sin, complete with untouchable flag. all matters, economic, military, humanitarian, et al., are second in importance.

it doesn’t seem possible, yet, it doesn’t seem deniable. the Left-West.

2011 VOA / Obama Elevates Gay Rights as a Foreign Policy Priority
https://www.voanews.com/a/obama-elevate ... 74955.html

it demonstrates the power of appropriated labels/brands.
wherein the product has been cheapened or changed, but the brand continues to sell, largely out of habit.
it’s a lie. clever and effective. a sleight-of-hand. skillful deception. this formula has become so common!

in my view, $100 billion to Ukraine, AND crippling sanctions, AND biden’s aggressive war rhetoric, say the U.S. is attacking Russia.
(for years, with an active draft and great carnage, the U.S. insisted Vietnam was “not a war.”)


Neto: “Anabaptist presence in Ukraine, relief work opportunity”
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... ne#p151664

[Bootstrap]

The only reason the US hasn’t attacked Russia, though, is because of the Nuclear deterrent. Unfortunately America is a bellicose, belligerent nation.

Much like the Soviet Union was.

If that actually happens, we will have something to speak out against. But it hasn't, and I am more concerned about victims of an actual war than victims of an imaginary war. I don't think the United States has any good reason to attack Russia, I would be surprised if that happens, but I could be wrong. The United States was the aggressor in Vietnam and Iraq, but not here.

In the meantime, Russia has attacked Ukraine, where the war is being fought. The victims are Ukranians - and Russian soldiers sent to fight this war. Russia was not attacked, not even by Ukraine.

[Ken]

The only reason the US hasn’t attacked Russia, though, is because of the Nuclear deterrent. Unfortunately America is a bellicose, belligerent nation.

Much like the Soviet Union was.

What possible reason would the US have to attack Russia? Nuclear deterrent or no nuclear deterrent?

What possible strategic reason would there ever be to deploy US troops to attack Russian territory?

[temporal1]

Page 1:

PLEASE WRITE-IN #11) OTHER .. describe your thoughts.

i chose #2, 9, 10.
(i hope allowing 3 “top” choices works out ok.)

#1 is THE challenge Jesus poses to His followers. Christian love for enemies, persecutors.

If His path was followed by the majority of “we claimed believers,” no matter label, what would happen??

For this thread, the focus is PUTIN.
Jesus did not limit this way, but i’m trying to imagine, “What-if” Christian love were offered to Putin, in particular?

Thoughts??

[Bootstrap]

#1 is THE challenge Jesus poses to His followers. Christian love for enemies, persecutors.

If His path was followed by the majority of “we claimed believers,” no matter label, what would happen??

For this thread, the focus is PUTIN.
Jesus did not limit this way, but i’m trying to imagine, “What-if” Christian love were offered to Putin, in particular?

How do you propose we show love to Putin? It's your question, do you have an answer in mind?

Do we need a separate thread to ask how we show love to Putin's victims?

I don't think we love Putin by pretending that his invasion of Ukraine was actually the United States invading Russia. That's just plain silly. I know that's what Pravda and Tass News Agency are saying, I know that's what Putin is claiming, but it's more loving to tell the truth than to repeat his lies. And I don't see any Christian purpose in doing so.

Given the fact that Putin invaded Ukraine and is doing his best to decimate the civilian population there, how do we, as Christians, love Putin? Do you have any answers to that question?

I don't think that Putin is our persecutor. I live far, far away from Ukraine in a safe and warm house, with power and heat and plenty of food. I doubt that I will ever have a chance to speak to Putin. I do have a chance to help refugees. So I'm having difficulty imagining an answer to your question - perhaps you can propose some better answers?

My first thought is that it's probably not a particularly helpful question. I can decide not to hate Putin. I can pray for Putin and Russia and Zelensky and Ukraine. But there's not much I can do personally to love Putin. Am I wrong? What do you suggest?

[temporal1]

i’m in pursuit of what Jesus wants regarding loving enemies. i don’t have that answer.
(i think) what i’m doing about putin is pretty good. it misses the mark.

i don’t think it’s what Jesus wants. that’s the puzzle. the scriptural language on loving enemies is captivating.

U.S. leadership is dug in that putin/russia are mortal enemies. Jesus says to love enemies. without qualifications, conditions, excuses, substitutes. explanations, exceptions or fine print.

[PetrChelcicky]

Some rambling thoughts.
Nobody should feel forced to love someone. Don't try to be more amiable than you feel free to.
I you want to love your enemy, look at it rather as a kind of work. This work has three parts: truly understanding, finding similarities and searching for an agreement. (It's intellectual work, that's why I personally find it compelling).
Truly understanding a person does not mean accepting everything at face value what he/she says. But even if many persons are gifted liars, the greater problem are always the delusions they really believe in. Those are not lies.
Finding similarities is hard work in a time when political propaganda suggests a deep psychological divide between "them" and "us". But if you look harder, it is always possible.
My personal experience here was when I read Putin's justification of his war. He argued that there is not only a legal obligation to keep peace, but as well a legal obligation to support people in danger of genocide. That's the same argument Nato used in its fight against Serbia. And it is as well an argument Western hardliners use when they plea for a war against Russia.
Insofar the way for an agreement is already sketched: Try to balance the obligation to keep peace against the obligation to support people in danger. It's not simple and I have no direct answer.

[Bootstrap]

My personal experience here was when I read Putin's justification of his war. He argued that there is not only a legal obligation to keep peace, but as well a legal obligation to support people in danger of genocide.

Ukraine is now in danger of genocide because of Putin. They were not in danger of genocide before Putin, those claims seem to be wartime propaganda, I spent quite a bit of time looking into that. I don't believe we should love Putin by believing these justifications for killing large numbers of civilians who were no threat to Russia.

So again, I find myself asking how we can love political leaders. Is "loving Putin" any different from "loving Biden" or "loving Trump"? Why is there a thread for Putin but not for Biden? In this conflict, if there is some way to love the leaders that are involved, I would think we should love Putin, Zelensky, and Biden. But I don't really understand what that's supposed to mean in practice. I will never talk to any of these men. I think I do understand what it means to not hate them.

[temporal1]

My personal experience here was when I read Putin's justification of his war. He argued that there is not only a legal obligation to keep peace, but as well a legal obligation to support people in danger of genocide.

Ukraine is now in danger of genocide because of Putin. They were not in danger of genocide before Putin, those claims seem to be wartime propaganda, I spent quite a bit of time looking into that. I don't believe we should love Putin by believing these justifications for killing large numbers of civilians who were no threat to Russia.

So again, I find myself asking how we can love political leaders. Is "loving Putin" any different from "loving Biden" or "loving Trump"? Why is there a thread for Putin but not for Biden? In this conflict, if there is some way to love the leaders that are involved, I would think we should love Putin, Zelensky, and Biden. But I don't really understand what that's supposed to mean in practice. I will never talk to any of these men. I think I do understand what it means to not hate them.

Ask Jesus. Loving enemies is His idea.

[Bootstrap]

My personal experience here was when I read Putin's justification of his war. He argued that there is not only a legal obligation to keep peace, but as well a legal obligation to support people in danger of genocide.

Ukraine is now in danger of genocide because of Putin. They were not in danger of genocide before Putin, those claims seem to be wartime propaganda, I spent quite a bit of time looking into that. I don't believe we should love Putin by believing these justifications for killing large numbers of civilians who were no threat to Russia.

So again, I find myself asking how we can love political leaders. Is "loving Putin" any different from "loving Biden" or "loving Trump"? Why is there a thread for Putin but not for Biden? In this conflict, if there is some way to love the leaders that are involved, I would think we should love Putin, Zelensky, and Biden. But I don't really understand what that's supposed to mean in practice. I will never talk to any of these men. I think I do understand what it means to not hate them.

Ask Jesus. Loving enemies is His idea.

Why do you think Putin is my enemy? I have no contact with him. He doesn't know I exist. My life does not revolve around him. My enemies are people who actively oppose me, people I have some contact with, people I have some relationship with.

In general, I think Christianity is best lived out in real life with real relationships. And we are easily distracted from that.

But you are proposing something different in this thread. How do you personally plan to love Putin, Biden, and Zelensky? Perhaps a concrete answer to this could help me understand what you are saying better. I really don't understand this question at all if you divorce it from loving other leaders in the conflict, and especially if you divorce it from loving the victims of these atrocities.