Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

[Sudsy]

Imteresting day around question 5. So, it sounds to me like there is room for 'healthy boundaries' to keep a distance from other believers in some situations, Here is a video I ran across on boundaries and I wonder what you think about his argument for boundaries - start about the 24 minute spot to get his view -

[Bootstrap]

So did you personally know JHY? Or did others follow his footsteps?

My story had nothing to do with him, this was another leader in an intentional Christian community in Michigan in the 1970s to early 1980s. I think they have repented and gotten their act together since then, as far as I can tell from this great distance. This was an interdenominational group, not Mennonite.

[Bootstrap]

Imteresting day around question 5. So, it sounds to me like there is room for 'healthy boundaries' to keep a distance from other believers in some situations, Here is a video I ran across on boundaries and I wonder what you think about his argument for boundaries - start about the 24 minute spot to get his view -

Are you familiar with Cloud and Townsend's teaching?

http://www.cloudtownsend.com

[Sudsy]

Imteresting day around question 5. So, it sounds to me like there is room for 'healthy boundaries' to keep a distance from other believers in some situations, Here is a video I ran across on boundaries and I wonder what you think about his argument for boundaries - start about the 24 minute spot to get his view -

Are you familiar with Cloud and Townsend's teaching?

http://www.cloudtownsend.com

No. I just listened to this part of a series on forgiveness that had to do with boundaries and thought perhaps this might be the reasoning some might have on setting boundaries. Do you agree with this reasoning ?

Here is a link to say this reasoning is not biblical - http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/unbibbound96.html

[Hats Off]

Here is a link to say this reasoning is not biblical - http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/unbibbound96.html

I quickly read Dewarts response to Cloud and Townsend and on the surface everything she says seems correct for those 95% of situations. However, she only seems to be talking about the more routine offences that arise between more or less equals. To take the example of Nickel Mines or JHY's type of situations and try to force them into the pattern of each party coming half way is hardly possible. I believe at Nickel Mines they went 100% of the way immediately with the cognitive part of forgiving but those people had to forgive many times over.

When I think of JHY, it is more the people in leadership positions that I have difficulty with. John was a man and sinned like a man but when those in power are in the know and just protect their own, that is a situation I find very difficult to forgive. Imagine how hard it must have been for the victims.

[MaxPC]

Here is a link to say this reasoning is not biblical - http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/unbibbound96.html

I quickly read Dewarts response to Cloud and Townsend and on the surface everything she says seems correct for those 95% of situations. However, she only seems to be talking about the more routine offences that arise between more or less equals. To take the example of Nickel Mines or JHY's type of situations and try to force them into the pattern of each party coming half way is hardly possible. I believe at Nickel Mines they went 100% of the way immediately with the cognitive part of forgiving but those people had to forgive many times over.

When I think of JHY, it is more the people in leadership positions that I have difficulty with. John was a man and sinned like a man but when those in power are in the know and just protect their own, that is a situation I find very difficult to forgive. Imagine how hard it must have been for the victims.

Hats Off, I agree. Jesus never forced others to accept the teaching; people accepted it via free will. So too, by His example of respect for the dignity of others, their personal history of pain and how much accommodation they are capable of mustering based on that pain and stages of healing is also known to God. He doesn't force people to His Will; He teaches and let's them decide to accept that teaching.

As you mentioned there is indeed a huge difference between cognitive forgiveness (head/intellect) and emotional forgiveness. Emotional pain is deep and visceral. If relationships are forced, it damages the healing process and it only serves the agenda of the abuser who still seeks control. Anytime leadership or others try to force relationships, bad community dynamics develop and even abuse-related issues.

We learned of these warning signs and behaviors in our own church's recent history of confronting abusers and helping victims of that abuse. It's a tragedy we hope to avert in the future and it takes on-going vigilance. I hope other faith groups will learn about these warning signs to avoid problems in their congregations.

[Sudsy]

I agree that relationships should not be forced. Reconciliation can be offered but not demanded. I don't think forcing any rule on others is the best way of maintaining relationships and unity and do believe in respecting freedom of choice. To me, the same approach applies to church rules in the area of sanctification.

But there is a power available to the believer to heal or deliver us from past hurts. These go beyond what psychology can do. The Son can set us free from anything from the past. Imo, we need more of this deliverance and miraculous healing belief today that seems to take a back seat or is no longer believed as much of Christianity has instead went to what man can figure out as solutions using his intellect. A form of godliness (aims at doing good) but denies the power of God to achieve things more quickly and completely.

[Sudsy]

When I think of JHY, it is more the people in leadership positions that I have difficulty with. John was a man and sinned like a man but when those in power are in the know and just protect their own, that is a situation I find very difficult to forgive. Imagine how hard it must have been for the victims.

Yes, John was just another sinner like one of us yet quite gifted in an area of ministry. And the leaders that protected him for so long were also just other sinners even though selected by other sinners as the best of us. They, too, are used of God even though they sin also. Although we acknowledge sinning does occur in all of us, those sins that remain mainly hidden are not so obvious in how they adversly affect the image of the group. Upper leadership is very much concerned with the image of the group. This can become a sin of pride in these leaders. And we know what pride leads to. So, many respected leaders and groups of leaders show there vulnerability to sinning. The Bakers, Swaggart, Popoff, Tilton, Crouch, Hinn, Haggard, etc, etc, but when it hits our group, it is quite shocking. Some expect that in modern day Evangelicals and Charismatics but now in Anabaptists and Roman Catholics also ?

Reminds me of this text - 'If you think you are standing strong, be careful not to fall. The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure.

[MaxPC]

I agree that relationships should not be forced. Reconciliation can be offered but not demanded. I don't think forcing any rule on others is the best way of maintaining relationships and unity and do believe in respecting freedom of choice. To me, the same approach applies to church rules in the area of sanctification.

But there is a power available to the believer to heal or deliver us from past hurts. These go beyond what psychology can do. The Son can set us free from anything from the past. Imo, we need more of this deliverance and miraculous healing belief today that seems to take a back seat or is no longer believed as much of Christianity has instead went to what man can figure out as solutions using his intellect. A form of godliness (aims at doing good) but denies the power of God to achieve things more quickly and completely.

I think we agree, Sudsy; we're simply using different words and frames of reference. My point is that for some who need more time for healing, God works with the depth of their pain time-wise and does not force it. Some need more time to heal at the emotional level because of the trauma they have experienced. PTSS (post traumatic stress syndrome) is a very real issue. Like any science, psychology is in a process of understanding how we are made by God, but then that's an entirely different topic for another time and thread.

Re

Some expect that in modern day Evangelicals and Charismatics but now in Anabaptists and Roman Catholics also ?

Reminds me of this text - 'If you think you are standing strong, be careful not to fall. The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure.

Whenever a faith group becomes complacent, I think it's forgotten that the temptations are doorways to sin if we aren't careful. It's better to heed the Bible regarding vigilance than to see even one soul lost because of a group's spiritual pride.

[Bootstrap]

Here is a link to say this reasoning is not biblical - http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/unbibbound96.html

Strange. I'm not sure that what her page describes is anything like what I remember from the teachings of Cloud and Townsend. I particularly suggest their book "How People Grow", which looks at a variety of topics about growing into Christian maturity, taking responsibility for yourself, not letting people manipulate you with shame, etc.

They have a useful 1-page summary of their book on Boundaries. Here's a quick summary:

Simply stated, it is this: people have a need to be in control of their own lives, and they have a need to know that God is behind that idea.

This need is fundamental in the creation of mankind, according to the Bible. God created us to be free, and to act responsibly with our freedom. He wanted us to be in control of ourselves, and to have a good existence. He was behind that idea all along. But as we all know, we misused our freedom and as a result, lost it. And the big fruit of this loss of freedom was the loss of self-control. We have felt the results of that ever since in a wide variety of misery. Consider a few of the alternatives to self-control:

• Controlling relationships where people try to control each other
• Faith that is practiced out of guilt and drudgery instead of freedom and love
• The replacement of love as a motivator with guilt, anger and fear instead
• The inability to stop evil in significant relationships and cultures
• The inability to gain control of out own behavior and solve problems in our lives
• The loss of control to addictive processes
• The generational cycle of sin unable to be broken[

These are to name a few. So, it is now no wonder why the need for Boundaries was felt so deeply. It talked about something so dear to the heart of God that He says it was one of the motivators for the sacrifice of Christ Himself: “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” (Gal. 5:1) Jesus died to set us free: from sin, from the devil, from the world around us. And that is the essence of what Boundaries teach—freedom. So, with that in mind, let’s look at some of the aspects of freedom that are important.

See the page for more. See their books for discussion of how this fits into the biblical world view. Here are some they list on the above page:

God is about Life. He is about restoring good things. And to do that, evil things must be held in check and transformed. He has given us many tools to perform this function of the salt that seasons the earth:

• Truth and Commands
• Confrontation
• Rebuke
• Exhortation
• Forgiveness
• Group Intervention
• Consequences
• Discipline
• Restoration
• Limit Setting
• Separation

[/list]

These are some of the processes that God has told us to do that limit and restore evil. And, they work. The problem is that we do not exercise our control and responsibility to do these things in our significant relationships, the church, and the world at large.

I think using all of these tools is important. For instance, if you only preach forgiveness but not confrontation, group intervention, discipline, limit setting, and restoration, you can empower abusive and controlling people or those who build themselves up using self-righteous condemnation of others. If the things in the list are out of balance or practiced only randomly, you will not have Christian maturity in a fellowship.