Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by Sudsy »

Text - Matthew 18:21-35 which ends with - "So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother’s trespasses.”

Looking at this text in how it might apply to forum participation -

One thing I think can and does happen in forum conversations is that unforgiveness of the Kingdom kind is sometimes lacking. In subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways we can form little cliques that give support to selected posts and not to others outside the clique. This usually originates from someone offending another, perhaps repeatedly, and then there is no further acknowledgement of anything good the offender posts. The offended may never again post on a thread started by the offender. Then has the offended trully forgiven the offender ?

So, looking at this verse 35, this forgiving is serious business. And early in the text it indicates that operating as Kingdom citizens forgiving one another is without limit.

I'm curious as to how others on this forum look at this.
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MaxPC
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote:Text - Matthew 18:21-35 which ends with - "So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother’s trespasses.”

Looking at this text in how it might apply to forum participation -

One thing I think can and does happen in forum conversations is that unforgiveness of the Kingdom kind is sometimes lacking. In subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways we can form little cliques that give support to selected posts and not to others outside the clique. This usually originates from someone offending another, perhaps repeatedly, and then there is no further acknowledgement of anything good the offender posts. The offended may never again post on a thread started by the offender. Then has the offended trully forgiven the offender ?

So, looking at this verse 35, this forgiving is serious business. And early in the text it indicates that operating as Kingdom citizens forgiving one another is without limit.

I'm curious as to how others on this forum look at this.
From my own life experience, I've seen others/third parties meddle in situations without knowing the whole story, thus making the situation worse rather than better. Forgiveness is a private matter (in the heart) as well as a public one. Not all acts of forgiveness are known. Nor in many cases should they be for the sake of confidentiality.

Some have excellent reasons for remaining distant vis a vis Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Some simply need time and grace.

I've seen how easy it is to succumb to the temptation to get caught up in the judgmental stance on these things when not all the facts are known. It's good to remember that no one completely knows a man's heart except for God-this can be especially true in forums. Rather than making the situation worse through interference or judgment, my experience is that praying for all the individuals involved and entrusting them to God's Will is the wise course of action.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Josh
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by Josh »

I've certainly been a person who's expressed a bit much rancour at times.

At the same time, some people I have reached out to don't seem very interested in pursuing reconciliation with me. For example, Max informed me he plans to ignore my posts and "shook off the dust of his feet". I have tried to open a dialog in private several times and gotten nowhere.

At some point, whilst one is a Christian, one does not have an obligation to tolerate anonymous people who engage in online trolling, just like I don't need to tolerate someone who sits down and shouts loudly when I am trying to talk to some other people. It's acceptable to point out that I disagree with someone, and it's also acceptable to question the claims someone makes who is completely anonymous. (I am not anonymous here.)

We should always conduct what we do with love. Ultimately, it's not loving to allow trolls to make lots and lots of low quality posts and ultimately destroy online discussion forums that otherwise could have good use.
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Sudsy
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by Sudsy »

I appreciate your responses. Thankyou.

A few questions that come to mind -

1) When this text says to forgive without limit, can we justify putting limits on forgiving one another ?
2) Doesn't turning the other cheek require this regardless of how often we need to do this with any fellow believer ?
3) Can we afford to delay any forgiving when our being forgiven of our own trespasses depends on our forgiving ?
4) Isn't forgiving other believers something we need to do immediately ?
5) Is there ever a valid time to keep distant from one another as believers in Christ ?
6) When the scripture says that love suffers long, should we not have a similar long suffering that Christ has with us ?
7) Is this kind of Kingdom living possible unless the Holy Spirit is directing our actions ?

My answers would be -

1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) Yes
5) No
6) Yes
7) No
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by JimFoxvog »

Sudsy wrote: ...
3) Can we afford to delay any forgiving when our being forgiven of our own trespasses depends on our forgiving ?
...
My answers would be -
...
3) No
...
I have been working on reconciliation with a brother. I have asked forgiveness for an offense. He told me cognitive forgiveness is different than emotional forgiveness. He was going to work on cognitive forgiveness but did not expect to be able to give emotional forgiveness until we separate and I am no longer in a position to offend him again.

So my questions:
Is this a valid distinction between cognitive and emotional forgiveness?
Can there be times in our emotional weakness we are unable to forgive?

Personally I've been able to say "Father, forgive him" to God, and "I forgive you" to the brother, but that has not healed all the emotional pain and I need to keep reminding myself that I have forgiven.
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MaxPC
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by MaxPC »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Sudsy wrote: ...
3) Can we afford to delay any forgiving when our being forgiven of our own trespasses depends on our forgiving ?
...
My answers would be -
...
3) No
...
I have been working on reconciliation with a brother. I have asked forgiveness for an offense. He told me cognitive forgiveness is different than emotional forgiveness. He was going to work on cognitive forgiveness but did not expect to be able to give emotional forgiveness until we separate and I am no longer in a position to offend him again.

So my questions:
Is this a valid distinction between cognitive and emotional forgiveness?
Can there be times in our emotional weakness we are unable to forgive?

Personally I've been able to say "Father, forgive him" to God, and "I forgive you" to the brother, but that has not healed all the emotional pain and I need to keep reminding myself that I have forgiven.
I see this frequently and I think you're right. Cognitive/rational efforts to forgive are essentially immediate. Emotional scarring is something else entirely. I don't feel that the Scripture is telling us to victimize the victim yet again by judging the victim on whether he's forgiven the other. That can quickly devolve into emotional abuse of the victim, piling hurt upon hurt instead of providing healing support and encouragement which the Bible also teaches. Forcing the victim to interact with his attacker can damage everyone, both directly and indirectly. Emotional fallout is just as destructive as the initial argument.

God knows man and would not condone bludgeoning the victim with Bible verses in order to force a result that a man may want. God is patient (more patient than we are) because He is not bound by our idea of time, rather He is timeless and provides grace as needed.

As I mentioned before, prayer for those involved is the wise course of action. It's commanded by the Bible and is very powerful. It's part of the conversation we are to have with Him every day so it's merely a moment of mentioning their names at the feet of the Lord.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Hats Off
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:I appreciate your responses. Thankyou.

A few questions that come to mind -

1) When this text says to forgive without limit, can we justify putting limits on forgiving one another ?
2) Doesn't turning the other cheek require this regardless of how often we need to do this with any fellow believer ?
3) Can we afford to delay any forgiving when our being forgiven of our own trespasses depends on our forgiving ?
4) Isn't forgiving other believers something we need to do immediately ?
5) Is there ever a valid time to keep distant from one another as believers in Christ ?
6) When the scripture says that love suffers long, should we not have a similar long suffering that Christ has with us ?
7) Is this kind of Kingdom living possible unless the Holy Spirit is directing our actions ?

My answers would be -

1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) Yes
5) No
6) Yes
7) No
I work in taxation - we are often asked what is the correct answer to a given situation, usually before given enough information - and the normal answer is "It depends." In forgiveness, some answers above would always be as you have suggested but for others "it depends."

For questions 4 and 5 my answer would be "it depends". In question 4, it depends on the situation or the degree of hurt. If a person in authority sexually or spiritually abuses someone over whom he had authority, immediate and complete forgiveness may not be possible. Forgiveness in situations involving deep hurts is a process that starts with cognitive forgiveness and works toward emotional forgiveness. We may need to forgive many times from our head before our heart is ready. We tend to say "forgive and forget" but this is just wrong! To forgive "as though it had never happened" is simply not possible for the person who was sexually or emotionally abused and to suggest that it should be is just creating more hurt for the already hurting.

For question 5, there are times when past experience tells us that it would be unwise to place ourselves in a situation where we would be in repeated close proximity to another person. If the person who has been abused has forgiven but if the offender has not made proper amends, the person who was abused will be justified in keeping a distance.
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Hats Off
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by Hats Off »

My question in relation to the latter verses in Matthew 18 is this; did the king forgive the ungrateful servant only to revoke his forgiveness when that servant showed his unwillingness to forgive? In other words, is it Christian to forgive someone only to revoke that forgiveness when we learn further truth about the offender? Does the offender's repentance have anything to do with our forgiving?

I guess the answer to all of this is in the last verse "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

This then again brings up the question of head versus heart forgiveness;
God knows man and would not condone bludgeoning the victim with Bible verses in order to force a result that a man may want. God is patient (more patient than we are) because He is not bound by our idea of time, rather He is timeless and provides grace as needed.
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MaxPC
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by MaxPC »

HatsOff, I think you surrounded the answer well with "it depends" and
Hats Off wrote:there are times when past experience tells us that it would be unwise to place ourselves in a situation where we would be in repeated close proximity to another person. If the person who has been abused has forgiven but if the offender has not made proper amends, the person who was abused will be justified in keeping a distance.
Sadly I've seen situations where the offender tries to force the victim to interact with him by enlisting others as his accessories to the abuse.

The offender pretends to be a victim because he is being avoided; then tells the third parties that the victim isn't a true Christian because he keeps his distance. The offender is psychologically manipulating others to continue inflicting abuse on the victim. It's another expression of the abusive behavior that continues to seek control over the victim. It's a sick and slick manipulative behavior exhibited by abusive personalities who seek control over others.

Again, praying for all involved and refusing to be manipulated into forcing the victim to interact with his abuser is the wise course of action as God knows the hearts of the two parties involved. Encouragement and support for the person who is attacked is also important for all involved.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Sudsy
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Re: Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

Post by Sudsy »

When it comes to what we are capable of in our humanness, I would agree that forgiving, as if something never happened, is extremely hard if not impossible. But if we are allowing for our humanness over what God can do in us, I think we miss out on being really set free. The person that we hurt the most by reliving hurtful memories in our heads is ourself. I believe the Holy Spirit is a master surgeon that can heal any and all past hurts. However, if we don't really believe that is possible then I think there is a good chance that we will never experience the level of freedom a Christian can have.

Does this take time to heal ? Sometimes I think it does. But being free from past hurts is dealing with any feelings that remain upon forgiving others. We are still a victim if we don't seek after this state of complete deliverance.

I think forgiving and reconciling are two different issues though related. Forgiving is moving on. Freeing up our minds for better use. About choosing peace and happiness. About refusing to think on bad experiences. About seeing the damage to ourselves when we are resentful. About giving ourselves a fresh start. Not allowing ourselves to feel victimized. How this can happen without seeking, trusting and cooperating with the enabling power of the Spirit, I don't know. Perhaps some are mentally strong enough to do that in themselves. I'm not.
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