Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

[Hats Off]

Jesus tells us in Matthew that we are to shake the dust off our feet and cut ties when the the second parties perseverate in not hearing us. We are to forgive them but we are also to walk away.

This is an easy teaching to abuse. If someone does not hear my opinion or disagrees with it, it's often important to sit down together and carefully examine what Scripture teaches. And even if we do not agree on everything, it's often more important to be one in Christ, despite differences of opinion, than to "insist on my own way".

In practice, I think Matthew 18 is important. The body decides when to cut someone off, not one individual who is feeling injured. And the body also decides when it is time to speak out against someone to safeguard the body as a whole, this is also not up to the individual. This is important so that people don't spread lies and slander against each other - "so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs."

The wisdom of the body discerning together helps us apply this for the sake of righteousness when real Kingdom issues are involved, not when I'm feeling hurt personally. And when it's time to shake the dust, it really is time to go.

Boot, I feel there is still an issue of "it depends" here. When I avoid someone in order to prevent a repeat of what has happened before, I am not condemning that person as an unbeliever and I am not asking the body to treat him as an unbeliever. Depending on the situation, if for example the offender is an older male in a leadership position and the abused is a single female (power versus powerlessness) it might not work well at all for the two to sit down and discuss the situation. The offended person may very well personally "shake the dust off their feet" as a preventive measure without doing so obviously or involving other people. There is one person in my life that I won't visit in their home without my wife and other family present as well. It is not a matter of forgiveness but we judge it to be wise.

[lesterb]

I've only scanned part of this thread, so maybe I'm overlapping or sidetracking here.

There are so many differing situations that I don't think we can put together a formula that works in every situation. The Matthew 18 scenario is different from the kind of scenario that Hats Off has been talking about. To be truthful, I'm not sure that I have ever seen Matthew 18 actually used and brought to a conclusion. It usually stalls somewhere around the middle. Probably where it is time to bring it to the church. At that point it usually gets treated as if the offended brother should just "get over it".

I heard a sermon once where the minister said that in 95% of cases, if the "victim" would just lay aside his grievances, everything would be fine. He said that in most cases the offender was entirely innocent of any intent to offend, and it was actually the offended person's problem.

There are, of course, some situations like this, but Matthew 18 is designed to sort out such situations. Only we never use it as it was designed. Once we get to point of taking it to the church, the leaders take over, and that is usually where it stops. At that point it gets treated as a two way problem and the offended brother simply shuts up. And probably takes evasive action to avoid a repeat of the situation.

I'm reasonably sure that more than one of us has been in such a situation in real life.

[MaxPC]

When I avoid someone in order to prevent a repeat of what has happened before, I am not condemning that person as an unbeliever and I am not asking the body to treat him as an unbeliever. Depending on the situation, if for example the offender is an older male in a leadership position and the abused is a single female (power versus powerlessness) it might not work well at all for the two to sit down and discuss the situation. The offended person may very well personally "shake the dust off their feet" as a preventive measure without doing so obviously or involving other people. There is one person in my life that I won't visit in their home without my wife and other family present as well. It is not a matter of forgiveness but we judge it to be wise.

Indeed, abusive personalities do everything they can to keep power over their victim(s). They are highly practiced manipulators. Following are behavior patterns that have been recognized in abusive personalities:
-the abuser claims with periodic or chronic frequency "it's not my fault, I tried ..."

-the abuser will persist in trying to force contact with his victim(s) via:
---the twisting of group rules or Scripture with slanted or circular arguments as well as
---claiming a special or privileged position then recruiting others to guilt or force the victim(s) to have contact
---stalking the victim(s) by interrupting and inserting himself into the victims' conversations with others; also the abuser will follow them around the gathering or area.

Signs of abuse in the victim(s):
-withdrawal from group activities that include the abuser and his cronies
-the victim(s) will have healthy relationships with other group members but refuse to talk with or be near the abuser and his cronies
-Depression and/or anger is sometimes a symptom as well

Some abusers are very aware of what they're doing. Others have learned these behaviors from another abuser and aren't aware that they are abusive themselves.

Regardless, Jesus never forced anyone in regard to His teachings. He respected free will. He didn't force contact with anyone. He always used a gentle manner because He knew there are those who suffered. If you see someone in your group who is avoiding another, listen and don't judge. Don't let others force the contact and don't fall for the manipulative talk of the person who is being avoided as this is a sign that there may be abuse. There's quite a bit that happens away from the eyes and ears of the group.

[Bootstrap]

This is an easy teaching to abuse. If someone does not hear my opinion or disagrees with it, it's often important to sit down together and carefully examine what Scripture teaches. And even if we do not agree on everything, it's often more important to be one in Christ, despite differences of opinion, than to "insist on my own way".

In practice, I think Matthew 18 is important. The body decides when to cut someone off, not one individual who is feeling injured. And the body also decides when it is time to speak out against someone to safeguard the body as a whole, this is also not up to the individual. This is important so that people don't spread lies and slander against each other - "so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs."

The wisdom of the body discerning together helps us apply this for the sake of righteousness when real Kingdom issues are involved, not when I'm feeling hurt personally. And when it's time to shake the dust, it really is time to go.

Boot, I feel there is still an issue of "it depends" here. When I avoid someone in order to prevent a repeat of what has happened before, I am not condemning that person as an unbeliever and I am not asking the body to treat him as an unbeliever. Depending on the situation, if for example the offender is an older male in a leadership position and the abused is a single female (power versus powerlessness) it might not work well at all for the two to sit down and discuss the situation. The offended person may very well personally "shake the dust off their feet" as a preventive measure without doing so obviously or involving other people. There is one person in my life that I won't visit in their home without my wife and other family present as well. It is not a matter of forgiveness but we judge it to be wise.

Yes, well said.

[Bootstrap]

I heard a sermon once where the minister said that in 95% of cases, if the "victim" would just lay aside his grievances, everything would be fine. He said that in most cases the offender was entirely innocent of any intent to offend, and it was actually the offended person's problem.

Yes, I agree with that. There are, of course, some people who really are abusive, whether or not they are aware of that, and there are times to protect people.

There are, of course, some situations like this, but Matthew 18 is designed to sort out such situations. Only we never use it as it was designed. Once we get to point of taking it to the church, the leaders take over, and that is usually where it stops. At that point it gets treated as a two way problem and the offended brother simply shuts up. And probably takes evasive action to avoid a repeat of the situation.

95% of the time, it probably is true that both sides are contributing to the problem more or less equally. And when you get a case where one person really is contributing a lot more to the problem and is unwilling to sort it out, many fellowships simply do not know how to handle that case differently.

I'm reasonably sure that more than one of us has been in such a situation in real life.

If you have, then I'm sure that more than one of us has. We're up to at least two now ;->

[Josh]

A challenge for conservative Mennonites is that it is often newcomers or new converts who uncover deep, ongoing hidden sin in a lifelong member. And our conservative congregations and leadership aren't very good at dealing with that.

Frankly, at this point, unless someone were actively abusing children I'd probably let some things go. It's not worth the personal mental stress and anguish, and ultimately God will judge. "Know ye not that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God?" It's a narrow way, and few there be that find it.

[Bootstrap]

A challenge for conservative Mennonites is that it is often newcomers or new converts who uncover deep, ongoing hidden sin in a lifelong member. And our conservative congregations and leadership aren't very good at dealing with that.

Frankly, at this point, unless someone were actively abusing children I'd probably let some things go. It's not worth the personal mental stress and anguish, and ultimately God will judge. "Know ye not that adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God?" It's a narrow way, and few there be that find it.

There are times that you may be called to uncover the sins of another. In the first 57 years of my life that happened precisely once, where an abusive leader was using his authority to sexually abuse women and frighten them into remaining silent. I was part of a small group that took this to the leadership so they could discern. They kicked us out instead, then kicked out the leader a year later when this all became public via some other source. This is a job for the discernment of leaders, not for individuals who want to denounce each other.

But I agree that this should be reserved for extreme situations. And it's important to recognize that most accusations say more about the accuser than they do about the accused. That may be a reason that many groups are careful about accusations made by newcomers or new converts or outsiders. Haven't we all heard false accusations, and eventually realized we should not trust the accuser?

[Hats Off]

So did you personally know JHY? Or did others follow his footsteps?

[KingdomBuilder]

I believe we should listen to verses like Titus 3:10-11 more so than we do versus like those found in Matthew 18 when it comes to cutting ties in response to personal conflict.

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

I think that the "shaking the dust off once feet" is often abused- as many have mentioned. I believe that this verse has more to do with evangelistic efforts and not so much every personal conflict.

[JimFoxvog]

I believe we should listen to verses like Titus 3:10-11 more so than we do versus like those found in Matthew 18 when it comes to cutting ties in response to personal conflict.

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

There are times for this. But I think of how this would be the scripture an abuser would use to silence his critic.

I think that the "shaking the dust off once feet" is often abused- as many have mentioned. I believe that this verse has more to do with evangelistic efforts and not so much every personal conflict.

Yes, the context says this to me also.