Forgiving one another - Kingdom kind

[MaxPC]

Sudsy, I think working with or even just listening to victims who've been manipulated and abused will help one's efforts to assimilate this spiritual concept of forgiveness/reconciliation/self preservation on a deeper level. I've been better able to assist these victims because I recognized the behavior patterns of abusive personalities. Sadly I've seen far too many of these personalities in 80+ years; there are consistent behaviors universal to all abusers regardless of setting or culture.

Understanding the pain of the victims and the behaviors of abusers is an excellent education in the multiple levels and means of forgiveness vs reconciliation vs self-preservation from abusive manipulation and attack, whether it's emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or any combination thereof.

I highly recommend sitting in on counseling groups helping abuse victims and just listening. It will be an eye opener not just on their pain but also on the repetitive patterns of abuser behaviors, especially those who try to blame the victim and manipulate Scripture and third parties to continue his abuse of the victim. One such behavior is the abuser's pretense to being a victim himself so that he can enlist others in his abusive efforts.

Learning to recognize the manipulative behaviors of abusers in faith groups will protect the Christian community as well. Leadership and community alike benefit from that education to avoid these intra-fellowship tragedies. The Catholic Church's experience in these lessons are fresh and its efforts to be proactive in preventing further abuse are ongoing.

All churches struggle with this tragedy. Assisting the victim and humbly understanding the need to allow the victim distance from the abuser is essential to good Christian community; it recognizes that not all facts or feelings are known or understood.

[Sudsy]

I have been working on reconciliation with a brother. I have asked forgiveness for an offense. He told me cognitive forgiveness is different than emotional forgiveness. He was going to work on cognitive forgiveness but did not expect to be able to give emotional forgiveness until we separate and I am no longer in a position to offend him again.

Interesting. Perhaps looking at a couple verses and seeing if they apply-

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4:32
“Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you” - Colossians 3:13.

Question - does God break fellowship with us when He forgives us ? Where is the support for this brother's action to break fellowship until he emotionally can get over his hurt ? It may take some time to work through this healing but I don't see where breaking fellowship is part of this healing process. I see in the NT where we are to break fellowship with an unrepentant brother but one who forgives ?

[MaxPC]

I have been working on reconciliation with a brother. I have asked forgiveness for an offense. He told me cognitive forgiveness is different than emotional forgiveness. He was going to work on cognitive forgiveness but did not expect to be able to give emotional forgiveness until we separate and I am no longer in a position to offend him again.

Interesting. Perhaps looking at a couple verses and seeing if they apply-

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4:32
“Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you” - Colossians 3:13.

Question - does God break fellowship with us when He forgives us ? Where is the support for this brother's action to break fellowship until he emotionally can get over his hurt ? It may take some time to work through this healing but I don't see where breaking fellowship is part of this healing process. I see in the NT where we are to break fellowship with an unrepentant brother but one who forgives ?

Are you able to read the recesses of the human heart? God can. But can you/do you have God's abilities in order to avoid being manipulated through a narrow interpretation of Scripture? I think it's important to realize that God has the capacity to do certain things that we can't be expected to do because we are not God.

[Sudsy]

Sudsy, I think working with or even just listening to victims who've been manipulated and abused will help one's efforts to assimilate this spiritual concept of forgiveness/reconciliation/self preservation on a deeper level. I've been better able to assist these victims because I recognized the behavior patterns of abusive personalities. Sadly I've seen far too many of these personalities in 80+ years; there are consistent behaviors universal to all abusers regardless of setting or culture.

Understanding the pain of the victims and the behaviors of abusers is an excellent education in the multiple levels and means of forgiveness vs reconciliation vs self-preservation from abusive manipulation and attack, whether it's emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or any combination thereof.

I highly recommend sitting in on counseling groups helping abuse victims and just listening. It will be an eye opener not just on their pain but also on the repetitive patterns of abuser behaviors, especially those who try to blame the victim and manipulate Scripture and third parties to continue his abuse of the victim.

Learning to recognize the manipulative behaviors of abusers in faith groups will protect the Christian community as well. Leadership and community alike benefit from that education. The Catholic Church's experience in these lessons are fresh and its efforts to be proactive in preventing further abuse are ongoing. All churches struggle with this tragedy.

Thanks Max, I appreciate your posts. I do think manipulative behaviour is a major issue in our world as it has roots in that old selfish, sinful nature. We are being brainwashed every day to become more self-centered than ever before to get things our way, regardless of who gets hurt. Quite the opposite of loving others as we love ourselves. I am just as vulnerable as the next person to being manipulative when I walk in the flesh. The war is on every day.

And I see where man is trying in various ways to help victims of manipulation and abuse. I just think for Christians we have a higher power beyond what man can do to overcome this and other forms of sin. Imo, the Church, in general has become worldly in it's thinking of a solution and it relies on a mix of man's solutions and God's remedy. Sadly, the supernatural power of deliverance in this mix gets under estimated by many. Believing in God's power to work supernaturally today is not intellectal enough for some or they just don't think God delivers and heals us from our past scars. Prayer, if used, can be a routine lacking faith to expect results. Imo, it is not about knowing more about these bad behaviours as it is about knowing the One who can set us free of all this for "whom the Son sets fee is free indeed".

[Sudsy]

I have been working on reconciliation with a brother. I have asked forgiveness for an offense. He told me cognitive forgiveness is different than emotional forgiveness. He was going to work on cognitive forgiveness but did not expect to be able to give emotional forgiveness until we separate and I am no longer in a position to offend him again.

Interesting. Perhaps looking at a couple verses and seeing if they apply-

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4:32
“Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you” - Colossians 3:13.

Question - does God break fellowship with us when He forgives us ? Where is the support for this brother's action to break fellowship until he emotionally can get over his hurt ? It may take some time to work through this healing but I don't see where breaking fellowship is part of this healing process. I see in the NT where we are to break fellowship with an unrepentant brother but one who forgives ?

Are you able to read the recesses of the human heart? God can. But can you/do you have God's abilities in order to avoid being manipulated through a narrow interpretation of Scripture? I think it's important to realize that God has the capacity to do certain things that we can't be expected to do because we are not God.

For sure, I am not even close to being God. However, is it unfair of God to ask us to forgive others as He forgives us ? When He says our sins are put in the sea of His forgetfulness never to be remembered against us again, is this not the kind of forgiveness we should desire to attain through the enabling power of the Spirit ? Or how would you interpret 'as the Lord forgave you' if this is too narrow of an interpretation ? Is it possible that even here we may again be guilty of interpreting scripture to best suit what is most comfortable to do ?

[KingdomBuilder]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but is it impossible to forgive and to also cut ties? Seems many think this. I can't say that I do.

[Bootstrap]

To me, forgiveness is one of the hallmarks of true faith and true love. Jesus is quite clear about the dangers of living in unforgiveness and setting yourself up as the judge of everyone else.

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

So I think it is urgent that we forgive and urge others to do the same. We do need to distinguish true doctrine from false doctrine, and we do sometimes need to shun someone who refuses to repent, but we still need to forgive. And we need to forgive as the Lord forgave us:

Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

So when we see sin, we should be up-front in calling it sin. But even if someone sins repeatedly, we still need to forgive:

3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

You can see unforgiveness in the way people treat each other. I think it's important to be able to rebuke each other directly and clearly distinguish right doctrine from wrong doctrine, but we also need to be kind and compassionate to each other, living in forgiveness:

31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

And when we rebuke and correct each other, it's important to remember that we are all sinners, we do not correct each other in a way that says "I am the holy one and you are not as good as I am":

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And even if we have to correct someone in public, we need to do so gently and with an eye to forgiveness. Paul demonstrates this graciousness toward a former enemy in 2 Corinthians 2:

5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

I like that phrase - "so that we would not be outwitted by Satan". If we choose to live in unforgiveness, we choose to be outwitted by Satan. We should not be ignorant of his designs.

[MaxPC]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but is it impossible to forgive and to also cut ties? Seems many think this. I can't say that I do.

I do believe it as so: because in the verses speaking to forgiveness, it says nothing about putting oneself in harm's way again.

Forgiveness is a teaching from God to help us to avoid bitterness which is a soul killer. God wants only good for us. He certainly isn't interested in destroying our hope by forcing us into situations of repeated emotional abuse. He simply tells us to forgive.

Jesus tells us in Matthew that we are to shake the dust off our feet and cut ties when the the second parties perseverate in not hearing us. We are to forgive them but we are also to walk away. The wisdom of Jesus' words in Luke and Matthew 10 is two-fold:
1. When we cannot get through to those second parties because they refuse to listen and to amend, we are respecting their free will choices as well as avoiding repeated manipulation and abuse. No where does Jesus say go back and try, try again. He says "shake the dust from your feet as a testimony..."
2. We are being non-resistant and keeping our hope intact by avoiding a battle of words, of emotions, even physical altercations. We entrust that situation to God to perfect it and we can continue our mission without bitterness.

[Bootstrap]

Jesus tells us in Matthew that we are to shake the dust off our feet and cut ties when the the second parties perseverate in not hearing us. We are to forgive them but we are also to walk away.

This is an easy teaching to abuse. If someone does not hear my opinion or disagrees with it, it's often important to sit down together and carefully examine what Scripture teaches. And even if we do not agree on everything, it's often more important to be one in Christ, despite differences of opinion, than to "insist on my own way".

In practice, I think Matthew 18 is important. The body decides when to cut someone off, not one individual who is feeling injured. And the body also decides when it is time to speak out against someone to safeguard the body as a whole, this is also not up to the individual. This is important so that people don't spread lies and slander against each other - "so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs."

The wisdom of the body discerning together helps us apply this for the sake of righteousness when real Kingdom issues are involved, not when I'm feeling hurt personally. And when it's time to shake the dust, it really is time to go.

[Josh]

One of the most insidious forms of spiritual abuse is either demanding someone forgive you, or "shaking off the dust of your feet" and declaring to someone they aren't saved anymore, etc.

Once someone was committing adultery and was angry when I accidentally found out about it and encouraged him to stop. He complained I was being unforgiving for his "past", and did his best to convince me my "unforgiveness" had caused me to forfeit my salvation.

Of course, I've had to forgive him for doing all of that too. But outside of proper church leadership - which means not just one minister, but multiple ministers - it is not ever proper to "shake off the dust" and declare to someone they have lost their salvation.

Likewise if you disagree with someone on an Internet forum, it is not proper to declare "shaken and done" and then say they're forfeiting their salvation. That kind of thing needs to happen in person, like Matthew 18, and with more than just one person. I think it happens best in a local church, not via an Internet forum with accusers who are anonymous.

When that happened to me right here on MennoNet, that really hurt too, and it's tempting to be unforgiving. But we have to forgive people even who are spiritually abusive.

We don't have to keep respecting them as holding any kind of authority, though. I don't listen to what a drunk on the street says, generally speaking. If he yells "You're about to get hit by a car - run!", though, I might listen.
I would treat the spiritually abusive person the same way.