Saved, Unsaved, Saved again, etc

[barnhart]

Sudsy, if you wish to discuss this, you might want to start at a deeper question, what does it mean to "be saved". You once started a thread about how many generations before you were born again. I didn't have a lot to say partly because many of those who came before me were sincere believers who read the scriptures and faithfully put them to practice, praying for God to direct them by his spirit. But they wouldn't have used phrases like born again so it doesn't feel right for me to project that back on them.

[Sudsy]

Sorry, my memory fading again. I didn't remember these conversations on OSAS back in Feb, 2022.

I'll just refer to one verse for now which is 1 John 5:13 AMP -

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God [which represents all that Jesus Christ is and does], so that you will know [with settled and absolute knowledge] that you [already] have eternal life.

So, I believe we don't have to doubt we are saved but rather we can know we are. My experience was different than Bercot's in that I have known those that struggle with an assurance of their salvation. Those people often are relying on how they feel at the moment and/or have some unconfessed sin in their life that they think could send them to hell.

In my later background we have assured those, who felt insecure, with scriptures such as the one above to not rely on feelings or their failings as a believer but rather to put their trust in what Jesus did to save us. Don't trust in their flawed performance but move on with serving the Lord. One of satan's main tools, I believe, is either to cause doubt in our salvation or to give us a false assurance of our salvation. His main goal is to make us unproductive in Kingdom work and uses means like this. We don't live by feelings but by faith.

I like what Piper says here about how we can know we are saved from the power and penalty of our sins -
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... ild-of-god

[Ernie]

For those who are interested in listening to recordings from a 2004 Colloquy on An Anabaptist -Christian View of Salvation, you can do so here.

David Bercot - https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-cont ... Bercot.mp3
Milo Zehr - https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-cont ... o-Zehr.mp3
Richard Herr - https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-cont ... d-Herr.mp3
Selected Responses - https://churchplantersforum.org/wp-cont ... ponses.mp3

[MaxPC]

Thanks for sharing this. It's interesting how more 19th-20th century revivalism/fundamentalism brings less peace. Sometimes the people who focus most on "salvation" have the least peace. The late Lester Bauman (lesterb) once posted to the old MennoDiscuss something to the effect of, "many Fundamentalists are relying on a formula. Take away the formula and they revert to their fear. I am convinced the 'living hope' view was more Biblical. They [Mennonites who became Old Orders] believed in a God who knew their frame and would bear with them in their infirmities."

Then there is Robert Friedmann's Hutterite story:

Several years ago, after a conference in South Dakota, a number of ministers decided to visit a nearby Hutterite Bruderhof, the oldest one in the United States, and I was invited to joint this group. We were cordially received and shown around and then the elders were ready to discuss their way of life. One of the very first questions the ministers asked was this: "What do you people teach regarding salvation?" Thereupon the very intelligent brother, who had very likely not anticipated this question, paused a moment and then said quietly, but with great assurance: "If we live in obedience to God's commandments, we are certain of being in God's gracious hands; we do not worry further about our salvation. Rather, we try to walk the narrow path in the fear of the Lord. We fight sin and practice brotherly love. How then can redemption be lacking?" The reply was as simple as it was authentic. Now it was the minsters, trained in conventional theology, who were surprised, and even a bit shocked. They had not anticipated such an answer.

The Hutterite brother had a calm assurance (small "a") which dwarfed the "Assurance" of the visiting ministers.

Amen. I do miss Lester too. I kept our correspondence and enjoy re-reading his wisdom.

I lose some paperwork once in a while, or a tool. Or my marbles. Usually I look for them and they show up again, sooner or later. That's quite a bit different than deliberately throwing them in the trash.

I will loan mine to you until you can find yours again.

[MaxPC]

Agreed.

We could think of it this way...

Some people are saved and know it.
Some people are saved and don't know it.
Some people are lost and know it.
Some people are lost and don't know it.

The last group above includes those who have not heard/understood, as well as those who think they are saved, but aren't.

The following drills down a bit deeper...

Some people who think they are saved, are indeed saved.
Some people who think they are not saved, are indeed saved.
Some people who think they are not saved, are not saved.
Some people who think they are saved, are not saved.

Some time ago three men participated in a colloquy at Faith Builders on "An Anabaptist Understanding of Salvation.
Milo Zehr focused on soteriology that unpacked the work of God in the heart of a true born-again believer as compared with the Protestant view of salvation.
Richard Herr presented a view of salvation that many Evangelicals would agree with.
David Bercot presented an early church view of salvation that was commonly affirmed by early Anabaptists.

As could be expected, Anabaptists in attendance who had been "enlightened" by the Protestant view of salvation, liked what Herr had to say. And for the most part appreciated with Zehr had to say. They did not like what Bercot had to say, but as Bercot pointed out, Herr presented a Protestant view of salvation that most Protestants would agree with, even though the colloquy was titled, "An Anabaptist View of Salvation."

Another interesting but important anecdote from the meeting that pertains to what Heirbyadoption writes above...
The panel discussion leader asked the three men how they would counsel someone who struggled with assurance of salvation.
Zehr explained how he would go about it. Herr explained how he would go about it. Bercot said something like this...

"This may be hard for you to believe but I have never met anyone who struggled with assurance of salvation or even known of anyone who does. Where I come from in Texas, nearly everybody is sure they are saved, including bumper stickers such as, 'In case of rapture the driver of this car will be unmanned.' I'm down there in Texas trying to get people to question their salvation. Since coming to my present belief about salvation, I have been in the frame of mind of asking myself, 'Am I saved?' "
(This was 25 years ago and in recent years Bercot and I have been friends. I don't think he spends a lot of time thinking about his salvation at this point, and I think he has a humble confidence that he is walking with the Lord.)

The thing I took away from this weekend was...
No matter what we believe, congregants are going to come to some conclusion about their relationship with God.
If a congregation has too many people questioning their salvation, there is something wrong with the teaching.
The same thing is true if a congregation has people who are living in sin, yet everybody in the congregation is sure that they are all saved.